Potential nation wide climbing ban

For the posting and discussion of Access Issues and Closures for Areas around South Africa.
Iain
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Paarl

Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Iain » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:24 am

No, this is not an April Fools joke.

On 3 August 2009 minister of enviromental affairs, Buyelwa Sonjica, signed the "Proposed Regulations for Proper Administration of Nature Reserves" (notice 1029 of 2009).

Draft Regulation 47 states: "No person may, except with the prior written authorisation of a management authority- engage in the sport of climbing rock faces."

This regulation covers scrambling, trad climbing, sport climbing and bouldering within the borders of any nature reserve. Remember that current permits (covered by wildcards) are land access permits, not climbing permits.

So, without a permit that doesn't exist, no climbing.

From what I hear, some legal minds within the MCSA are working on a document to be lodged with the ministers office before the regulations are finalised.
Inspiration exists, but it must find you working. – Pablo Picasso

User avatar
emile
Posts: 867
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:41 am
Real Name: OneDog

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by emile » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:19 am

from Polity.org.za
Buyelwa Patience Sonjica, Minister of Water and Environmental Affairs, hereby give notice of the intention to, under paragraph {1} of section 53, read with paragraph (3) of section 57 of the Act, make the regulations in the schedule.
On page 37 of the Draft regulations for the proper administration of nature reserves: For written representations of objections:
No person may, except with the prior written authorization of a management authority
(1) engage in the sport of climbing rock faces;
(2) engage in the sport of parachuting or abseiling;
(3) use a hang glider or any other kind of glider;
(4) launch or fly a hot air balloon;
(5) fly model planes or gliders;
(6) engage in the sport of any kind of boarding; or
(7) operate any motorised vehicle for recreational purposes.
and it goes on about watersport, pets etc. etc.

illona
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:24 am
Location: Cape Town

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by illona » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:21 am

Why would they do this? Are they forcing permits on rugby players and other random sports too?

User avatar
proze
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:57 am
Real Name: Paul P
Location: CT

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by proze » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:35 am

Pardon my ignorance, but which of our major areas are in reserves? Cedarberg, Rocklands, Table Mountain, Shongweni... add to the list?

rocklooney
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:22 am
Real Name: Patrick Fraser

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by rocklooney » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:47 am

Morons. Like they haven't got more important s*&t to sort out in this wonderful country of ours (theirs). I suppose he needed two weeks in the Hyatt Regency at R 450 000 to draft this quaint little paragraph? Will be interesting to see how they enforce it. They'll all have to learn to free Oceans of Fear.

User avatar
XMod
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:38 pm
Real Name: Greg Hart

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by XMod » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:51 am

Aah yes our tax dollars hard at work for us! Government policy: If you do not understand something ban it!

Now which of you fools voted for these squatters again? Hmm, c'mon own up!

Soon you will not be allowed to: speak English (or Afrikaans), engage in intelligent conversation, have intelligent thought patterns, ...or even use condoms!! If you are caught doing any of the above without an official government permit you will be shot on sight by our new paramilitary police force!

SA Politicians:
Image

Magnus
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:57 pm
Location: Port Elizabeth

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Magnus » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:06 am

I think they figured that the easiest (i.e. least work) way to manage a reserve, is to keep people out. The animals look after themselves and the fynbos is pretty hardy. Perfect plan!

User avatar
Dogleg
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 2:06 pm
Real Name: Trent Burnett
Location: Durban

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Dogleg » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:12 am

When is this potential ban potentially being enforced? And why for that matter? Somebody die (natural selection)?
It'll be fun breaking the law just to go climbing!
Somehow though, this all seems like a bunch of crap... I'm not buying it.
I'm not here for a long time,
I'm here for a good time!

Magnus
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:57 pm
Location: Port Elizabeth

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Magnus » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:14 am

JOIN the MCSA! :thumright Nobody cares about this forum.

pillick
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:22 am

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by pillick » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:25 am

I am a criminal. I went climbing yesterday....

Funny how quickly the masses are relying on the MCSA to "sort" this out. I am sure everyone who has dissed the club in the past will now have to "work together" in order make climbing legal.

Climbers unite...

M@
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:37 pm
Real Name: Mathieu Schneuwly
Location: Cape Town

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by M@ » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:25 am

I'm sure Mr Malema could offer some pearls of wisdom on the matter since climbers are "elite whites" and obviously hiding their "real agenda" in this imperialist activity.

Wow SA politics are truly comical!

User avatar
Nic Le Maitre
Posts: 1368
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:40 am
Real Name: Nic Le Maitre
Location: Harrismith

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:30 am

Climbing areas in reserves in the Western Cape

All of the TM-Penisula spots are in the National Park;
Rocklands, Tafelberg, Truitjieskraal, The Pup, Maltese Cross... basically everywhere in the Cedarberg except Wolfberg and Sanddrift are in a Cape Nature area;
Du Toits Kloof, Hellfire, Witteberg, Deception, Wemmershoekberge, Limietberge are also all in the Limietberg Nature Reserve;
Kleinmond and Hangklip are in the Kogelberg Nature Reserve;
The Winterhoek is a reserve too... No more Oceans and Frontal...;
I may be wrong here but I think that Toverkop is also in a reserve
Paarl Rock is in a Municipal reserve, not sure if the legislation will exclude that too
:pukel: :shock: :puker:
Basically all the world class climbing spots in the Western Cape are in protected areas...
Happy climbing
Nic

napaman
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:33 am
Real Name: Andrew Kyriacou

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by napaman » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:17 am

Yoyo,

Link to notice: http://us-cdn.creamermedia.co.za/assets ... t_1029.pdf

1. This notice was given on the 3rd of August and 60 days was given for any objections. Why has this come up on the forum now? Why didnt anybody give us a heads up so we can ALL send in objections.
2. Have the MCSA been active with this?
3. I dont think that this is the only country in the word that has these rules. It is not a ban on these activities. We need to get permission to do it. Its probably only to indemnify the parks should something happen. I dont mind getting a permit to climb if they are going to enforce the other rules in the document.
4. This document has plenty of rules which will make the parks safer, cleaner and more pleasant to be in. No Noise pollution (We know how this gets out of hand)

Would i obey this law? Whould i pay for a permit? Sure i would but if i had to read here that someone got mugged at chosspile and the security is substandard I wouldnt. I would tel em to go get.... If the park is dirty Poluted i wouldnt.

Read the document. I agree with many of the laws in it. Its for the better of nature.

For Laughs :lol: :lol: (1) No person may, except with the prior written authorization of a management
authority(
a) remove from a nature reserve any
(vi) Guano :lol: :lol:



Andrew.

BruceT
Posts: 140
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:08 pm
Real Name: Bruce Tomalin
Location: Durban

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by BruceT » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:28 am

Hi Andrew. referring to your laughs...
Funnily enough that particular reg makes sense:
some (all?) offshore marine islands are nature reserves,
sea-birds land on these islands,
there they produce white gold (there was a guana "rush" off the west coast islands at the turn of the century as profitable as any gold rush),
some of them nest on the islands and penguins use guana to make nests (yes they live in sh*t...).
Penguins are endangered - and guano collecting disturbs them...

Perhaps climbers are also becoming endangered?
In Durban, most climbing areas are in nature reserves of some sort (not national) except for Monteseel and Winston Park - does this mean we are going to see many more sports climbers at Monties?
C ya there,
Bruce

nosmo
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:34 pm
Location: Under my bed

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by nosmo » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:36 am

Someone should forward them a copy of that published apology in that one journal. "But we said sorry already!!" Hehe.

No but seriously. Fck em.

MarkM
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: JHB

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by MarkM » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:08 am

It would seem that the Cape will no longer be a climbing paradise.

The proposed regulations do not come as a surprise - why would our brothers in government actively head out and try to manage 'the problem' (read: all outdoor users) when you can keep your fat butt in an office chain and simply outlaw it, that way they can head home in luxury vehicles after a hard days work and give themselves a high five on job well done.
Open hand, open mind...

User avatar
Mark
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:01 pm
Location: JHB

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Mark » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:15 am

Its a simple case of "what good is authority if you dont use it" - they need to flex their "muscles" to reassure themselves that they are important

mokganjetsi
Posts: 1721
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
Location: Cape Town

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by mokganjetsi » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:28 am

i don't think its as bad as it seems - probably just trying to tighten-up control on activities in nature reserves. will probably require an annually renewable climbing permit (same as a mountain biking permit on your wildcard or similar). i do not see them banning climbing completely or making it prohibitively difficult to participate in it.
and how will they police it?

otherwise we should get ready to burn tyres, libraries and the cable station to demostrate our anger..... :wink:

User avatar
Not
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:14 pm
Real Name: Ernesto Ismail
Location: Cape Town

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Not » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:11 pm

I similar thing happened three years ago with regards to SCUBA diving in Marine Protected Areas. In 2006 I wrote a letter to the directorate for MPAs and received a letter granting me permission to dive in MPAs.

Now diving is included on a permit that can be purchased at the post office. It costs about R80 p.a.

I doubt we can just be shut out completely. Then again, the USA completely shut out BASE jumpers.
I don't think, therefore I'm Not

Paradox
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:32 pm

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Paradox » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:19 pm

err so it's ok to rape the country (and the earth) of it's natural resources but not ok to climb rocks? Climbers will not destroy rock faces because then we destroy our own sport. FFS

alvaourr
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:53 pm
Real Name: Ferdinand Pieterse
Location: Cape Town

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by alvaourr » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:59 pm

I agree with "Not" and "mokganjetsi"

I don't get why requiring a permit to climb is such a huge issue?

Does everyone only read up to "No person may" and then skip over "except with the prior written authorization of a management authority"

User avatar
Not
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:14 pm
Real Name: Ernesto Ismail
Location: Cape Town

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Not » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:05 pm

Hang on,
I'm not saying this is a non-issue. Its a very serious issue. I don't like being told I can't climb in land that is ostensibly public land.

All I was pointing out is that there are workable solutions to the legislation. In the case of diving permits the money is intended to keep access routes open and to fund clean up of the most popular dive-sites. In the case of climbing the money should be channelled to ARF or path building committees.
I don't think, therefore I'm Not

alvaourr
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:53 pm
Real Name: Ferdinand Pieterse
Location: Cape Town

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by alvaourr » Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:44 pm

Ok let me re-phrase,

What I'm getting at is this.

Its a restriction not a prohibition or "ban".

They are not saying you can't climb, only that you need to obtain permission first.

If they don't have restrictions then the bad elements can also claim "its public land so why should they leave". Look at whats starting to happen at Higgovale, innocent climbers are being harassed because of the actions of others. And from what I understand the "lack of paperwork" is adding to the grief. (PS the email floating around about granting access to Higgovale has a disclaimer at the bottom saying its intended only for the recipient and no-one else.)

A permit system can prevent that. I.E if you have a permit the rangers / police will have to leave you alone and i can assure you the druggies are not going to apply :) .

Seriously who's gonna "lose an eye" because you need to carry some form of access permission with you?

I'm not saying you guys don't have a right to complain, just that if I think it through a bit it doesn't seem like the end of the world.

MarkM
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: JHB

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by MarkM » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:20 pm

The authorities don't have a great track record when it comes to permitting - look at Rocklands. Permits in general for climbing in the Western Cape are a ball ache to obtain. Then there's the policing of the permits - I have never been asked for one outside of CT proper (Topside).

If I'm not mistaken, climbers have tried to help out with the permitting at Rocklands and the running of the camp site during the peak season after it was closed and were told no-way.

Regulations & permits are a great way to have organised access but lets be honest our local authorities have no idea when it comes to these sorts of things and they have been reluctant to accept help from people willing to lend a hand.
Open hand, open mind...

User avatar
XMod
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:38 pm
Real Name: Greg Hart

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by XMod » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:18 pm

I think youre missing the point, its the loss of civil liberties that is so irritating. Basically your freedom is being eroded slowly but surely by big brother. During my grandmother's time there were no such thing as vizas, travel permits or even immigration control. Think about it, in sixty years we have gone from a fairly free world to one where every single action is tightly controlled and regulated.

The 'freedom of the hills' is fast becoming a fading memory. How long before you will no longer be able to pick up a rack and head out for an adventure on a whim? Not long I think. Soon you will end up going thru long paper trail permit systems (read complete rip-off and total waste of time) just to hike up DuToits peak. And if you cant afford the rates (geared at overseas visitors) then its too bad, you will have to just sit at home and watch TV, which is exactly what 'they' want you to do in the first place. TV watchers are easily accounted for and controlled, ppl roaming loose in the wilds? Well that just wont do now will it!?

Marshall1
Posts: 770
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Location: Port Elizabeth
Contact:

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Marshall1 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:33 pm

Quite simple...move to the Eastern Cape. Our local govenment feels for us the same as we feel for them... a fu**.

Realise that these rules mean nothing unless you choose to obey. What are they going to do?

User avatar
XMod
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:38 pm
Real Name: Greg Hart

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by XMod » Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:58 pm

Anarchy in the EC
Its coming sometime and maybe......

User avatar
emile
Posts: 867
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:41 am
Real Name: OneDog

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by emile » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:55 am

akafridge asked me to post this on his behalf as his internet connection has gone all Telkom:
akafridge wrote:This just plainly sucks.
The man is hard at work i see.
I will never get a permit (I see this in the same way as the "pas" that people had to use in the apparteids era).
i also believe that the government should fear the people and not the other way around.

I fully agree and believe in the MCSA access arrangements but i do not believe or
trust in our government and there whacky idieas.
It is just another way for them to try and control our lives.

I say FCK them and i am asking every one to stand with me on this
and never get a permit or bow down to the man.

We are not a bunch of cattle that can be controlled or played around with and we need to make sure they are aware of this fact.

GeoffJ
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 11:46 am
Real Name: GeoffJ

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by GeoffJ » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:58 am

I think that before we go all DA on the legislations a$$ we should look at how this could work to benefit climbing in SA in general. If you're managing a protected area you need some form of understanding of who is using it and for what. A permit system is one way of doing it-there's no indication of cost of permits etc, but those are points that can be lobbied. A system that shows that climbers contribute significant revenue to an area gives climbers potential leverage to get the peeps in charge to improve infrastructure for climbing for instance. So if you actually give a sh$t then rather look at ways to constructively engage with the process. My 2c.

User avatar
XMod
Posts: 932
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:38 pm
Real Name: Greg Hart

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by XMod » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:00 am

GeoffJ wrote:...ways to constructively engage with the process. My 2c.
Like dropping your drawers and assuming the position? -Take it like a man son!! way to go!

Post Reply