Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

What your instructor never taught you. Continuing your education and learning from others. Climbing safety topics and accident/incident discussions.
alvaourr
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:53 pm
Real Name: Ferdinand Pieterse
Location: Cape Town

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by alvaourr » Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:47 pm

Russell Warren wrote:To all of you that say you will never make a mistake while belaying I hope you are correct, but I also think you forget that you are human.

Russell I may have missed a post, but I don't recall anybody claiming that they don't make mistakes, the overall feeling I get is more in the line of "if you mess up it doesn't mean the device is dodgy".

along with " the devices are there to assist you, not arrest the fall without you. "

User avatar
XMod
Posts: 949
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:38 pm
Real Name: Greg Hart

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by XMod » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:51 pm

I think it was 9ja saying that dropping your partner was unforgivable that prompted Russel's response? In truth mistakes will be made by even the most experienced climbers. The time I was dropped I just laughed, after all nothing happened. Others have not been so lucky though.

The most pertinent point (from seeing a similar accident happen right in front of, resulting in a fractured ankle) is that when things go wrong they happen really, really fast. Way too fast sometimes to react to and save the stuation. Please everyone be vigilant, not only about ur own belaying but (where possible) about that of those around you.

In another incident I fumbled the brake end of the rope as my climber fell, a quick thinking and acting climber next to us dived onto the rope pile saving the day. Years later I was able to pay this back by doing the same dive when the next door belayer dropped the rope. Lets look out for each other at the crags and gym! And if someone corrects you take it good spirit, they have ur best interests at heart after all!

User avatar
Leebo
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:26 am
Real Name: Lee de Smidt
Location: Cape Town

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by Leebo » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:20 am

Anyone got any experience with a grigri wearing out? Does this happen?

User avatar
proze
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:57 am
Real Name: Paul P
Location: CT

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by proze » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:33 am

http://www.splitterchoss.com/2009/12/16 ... t-winners/

Never personally seen a really bad one, though.

User avatar
Leebo
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:26 am
Real Name: Lee de Smidt
Location: Cape Town

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by Leebo » Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:24 am

Damn, that's bad! If that's the case then mine still has yeeaars...

User avatar
Forket
Posts: 776
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:34 pm
Real Name: Everyday Troll

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by Forket » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:29 am

I have only read the first post and not going to read the next 3 pages of posts, Dicky, i used the exact same cinch(Alex's) and the exact same rope(exploratio's) and I belay properly, I was belaying Illona Pelser on Firestarter in montagu and had both my hands on the rope(above and below) the cinch. Illona bailed and i stoped her decking by holding onto the rope with both my hands(above and below the cinch) and stopping the rope from slipping further through the device. if illona didnt hit me the device would not have finally auto locked so I dont think it's belayers fault. If anybody questions my judgement on the case ask Illona or alex who both saw my hands after the fall. Not complaining just stating an experience.

Ebert Nel
----------
Let's just all stick to the grig1, it may be more expensive, bigger, more bulky and weigh more, but atleast it works:)

User avatar
ScottS
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:10 pm
Real Name: Scott Sinclair
Location: Durban, South Africa

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by ScottS » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:34 pm

Ebert - it probably wasn't a good idea to hold the rope above the device. You're preventing it from doing it's job (assisted braking/"auto-locking") by doing that.. Hand on bottom part of rope a fantastic idea of course :)
At the chaaaaains boet!!

User avatar
dirktalma
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:04 am
Real Name: Dirk Talma
Location: Pretoria

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by dirktalma » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:36 pm

Thanks Ebert.
I think you're the first post to actually confirm what happened at Boven and the first truly helpful one.
That was the thing that bothered me. I thought I saw Mo hold the bottom rope, but I then told myself he probably let it go for a second. He probably had his hand on the rope after all.
Its weird that the only two incidents where the cinch sort of failed was with the same device. Might want to look into it.

No need to read the first 3 pages. Just the same argument over and over

User avatar
Forket
Posts: 776
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:34 pm
Real Name: Everyday Troll

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by Forket » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:37 am

Scott, the rope was also held above the device because its lead belay and its a super tight belay at the bottom of Firestarter otherwise the climber hits their belayer in the face every time and i know how to belay, the divice did not catch, had the black rope slippage streaks on my hands to show that:)

toejam
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:21 am

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by toejam » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:15 am

you missing the point, you shouldn't have rope marks on your hand from above the device....only hold the tail end of the rope below the device. Nobody is accusing anyone of not knowing how to belay, but it should be stated what is right and wrong.

User avatar
Forket
Posts: 776
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:34 pm
Real Name: Everyday Troll

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by Forket » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:19 pm

toejam wrote:you missing the point, you shouldn't have rope marks on your hand from above the device....only hold the tail end of the rope below the device. Nobody is accusing anyone of not knowing how to belay, but it should be stated what is right and wrong.
But what if the device does not lock? do you just use one hand to try slow the rope down?

User avatar
Gustav
Posts: 670
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Waterval Boven

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by Gustav » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:44 pm

if illona didnt hit me the device would not have finally auto locked so I dont think it's belayers fault.
How many times did she have to hit you? Just once I hope...
Gustav
Roc 'n Rope Adventures
Waterval Boven
+27 13 120 4600
climb @t rocrope dot com

User avatar
proze
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:57 am
Real Name: Paul P
Location: CT

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by proze » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:57 pm

Forket wrote:
toejam wrote:you missing the point, you shouldn't have rope marks on your hand from above the device....only hold the tail end of the rope below the device. Nobody is accusing anyone of not knowing how to belay, but it should be stated what is right and wrong.
But what if the device does not lock? do you just use one hand to try slow the rope down?
No, you use two, below the device. If you can't figure that one out, then maybe leave belaying to other people? :thumleft:

Norman
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:28 pm
Real Name: Norman

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by Norman » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:48 pm

Dude, if you're belaying properly, you have one hand above device and one below right. If the device fails to lock off, you lock of with your hands as they are, seems pretty silly to let go of the top hand and move it to below the device! If you can't figure that out, get someone else to belay!

User avatar
proze
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:57 am
Real Name: Paul P
Location: CT

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by proze » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:54 pm

Invited some friends, Forket? Ja, you okes are right, belay however you want. That way when you fall on your heads and stop climbing, the crags will be emptier! :jocolor:

wesleywt
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:04 pm
Real Name: Wesley Williams

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by wesleywt » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:50 pm

Norman wrote:Dude, if you're belaying properly, you have one hand above device and one below right. If the device fails to lock off, you lock of with your hands as they are, seems pretty silly to let go of the top hand and move it to below the device! If you can't figure that out, get someone else to belay!
If your grabbing the rope above the device you might prevent it from locking and get some lekker rope burn. I don't have a cinch, but to me it looks like a possible outcome.

Just finished reading the manual which I am sure you guys have. When loading the cinch, just before the climber starts you are suppose to yank the rope towards the climber to test if you have loaded the cinch correctly and that the braking function works properly.

When in doubt go and learn how to belay in a gym or use a bug. Braking devices like the cinch and the grigri are convenient but not a replacement for good belaying.

Norman
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:28 pm
Real Name: Norman

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by Norman » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:09 pm

@ Wes, i agree 100%, but Forket indicated that the device was not locking, in that case, i reckon he did the right thing and in the process prevented the climber from decking. The same should also be applied to the grigri, you should always give it a yank to see if it has been loaded the right way. I'm sure countless accidents could be stopped by this simple step.

@ Paul, i never met the man in my life, but it sounds as if he was belaying properly and the equipment failed -it does (for various reasons, including human error). Think about it when next you belay.

User avatar
XMod
Posts: 949
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:38 pm
Real Name: Greg Hart

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by XMod » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:24 pm

If you hold onto the rope above the device you may actually prevent enough force reaching the device to activate the cam/brake, the same thing happens if someone peels backward slowly off a slab, not enough force is generated intially to overcome the spring and activate the device. IE the force comes on too slowly, the cam likes a sudden jolt to pull it into the brake position.

Never try and hold a fall with your upper hand, this hand should be removed and placed on top of the lower brake hand, on the rope, below the device. Yes a single hand (below the device and preferably behind your thigh) is sufficient to hold a fall. You will probably find the brake has activated and you are being lifted up before you get the top hand down fully, even so, make sure that hand goes down just in case you lose grip with the bottom hand, the top hand is a back up.

If you have to give a very close belay try holding the top end with two fingers & thumb only, this is sufficient to 'feel' where the climber is and yet will allow the rope to be pulled from those fingers in the case of a fall. Fine tune the slack you give by stepping backward or forward, if you work both with your hands and feet you can get this spot on with little effort and without too much complicated paying in and out of rope (keep the ropwwork simple - its harder to make mistakes that way).

Again grasping the rope above the device serves only to stop the device from working properly and to give you fat rope burn across your hand! Also watch out for brand new ropes which can slide through without activating the brake and of course ropes that are the wrong diameter for the device. Always double check that the device is threaded the correct way and that the cam/lock is working properly before the climber leaves the ground. Be wary of devices that have been recently serviced as lubricant may cause rope slippage (silicone lube is particularly bad in this respect.)

User avatar
Turtle
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:20 pm
Real Name: Jacques Redelinghuys

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by Turtle » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:40 pm

@Norman: I recommend to everyone to try and learn the very important method of grabbing the dead-end (the rope on the break-end, aka the dead-end ) with both hands when a climber falls. Let go of the rope above the belay device ( aka the live-end) and help grab the dead-end. You should definitely try to hold that part of the rope with two hands. Its a bit of an advanced trick, but will only help.

3 reasons for this: 1) if one hand burns, you've got the other hand already there to take over/assist in holding the climber, 2) you must remember that you have NO stopping-power on the top part of the rope (live-end) - the only stopping-power you have is on the dead-end below the belay device, to alow the device do the work its made for, 3) devices like the grigri and cinch needs the 'yank' of a falling climber to activate the break, so if you in any way try and hold the climbers weight on the live-end above the belay device, you'll only release the break.
I think this is what happened in the now famous "cinch-failure" belay. You're going to release the break and then have to deal with a 'auto-locking device' working almost as a pulley rather than a breaking device.

First option: hold both hands on the dead-end on a fall, Second option: let go of the rope and device completely (grigri or cinch ONLY) on a fall and hope the device locks. Obviously this option falls away when belaying with a atc, bug, stich plate or similar tubular device.

There is no other options imho, not even the one with one hand above and one hand below the belay device. I have seen 1 fall like this already this year, and alas, it happened with a grigri... heard of another one at Higgovale. Both times the climbers fell to the ground and got hurt...

dead-end: if you let go somebody dies
live-end: connected to a live climber - keep it that way!

User avatar
XMod
Posts: 949
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:38 pm
Real Name: Greg Hart

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by XMod » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:00 pm

LOL! Looks like Jaques and I were posting at the same time as we both say exactly the same thing - Snap! Wise words - take heed................or just take up bouldering where u dont have to worry about any of this crap!

(No, no dont get me started on the science of spotting! :evil: ) nuff newby stuff already :pukel: , get it right ppl!

User avatar
Turtle
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:20 pm
Real Name: Jacques Redelinghuys

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by Turtle » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:19 pm

Bwwahaha, yip, that's what happened Xmod! :mrgreen:

But true words none the less...

Oh, yes the science of spotting... lets not go there yet.

But belaying and spotting is an art! Don't see it as anything less.

User avatar
Forket
Posts: 776
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:34 pm
Real Name: Everyday Troll

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by Forket » Wed May 04, 2011 10:53 pm

R5 saying that half the people posting on this forum hasnt used a cinch more than once if at all?

I know how to use the device, i've been climbing with critical people like my coach at school who drilled safety into our heads especially because its her son we belay.

If you have used a cinch you would also know that it has a nearly frictionless feed if at the right angle and if it doesnt catch the rope it doesnt have a spring load like a grigri, dont quote me on my info on the grig, i dont have the right terminology sorry.

Lastly, stop the bickering, even if the original guy this post is about did give a less than perfect belay, we all start of beginners. If you can show me an experienced climber/belayer that has a perfect track record with belaying then il be impressed. We all humans in a very smal climbing community. I was told to grow up about a few posts i made and now im asking the same of you.

We only human afterall. . .

Ebert nel
I am a human being, less than perfect

User avatar
Justin
Posts: 3875
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
Real Name: Justin Lawson
Location: Montagu/Cape Town
Contact:

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by Justin » Wed May 04, 2011 11:28 pm

"Climbing with zero risk is, of course, impossible. However, learning the right moves, both for climbing and for using the equipment, significantly reduces the risk of accident. But this learning is not everything.
Force of habit, over confidence, and fatigue can all reduce vigilance
."
From the Petzl 'Tools and Techniques 2011' catalogue

As Forket correctly points out 'an accident is an unplanned event'
And he is correct about the Cinch in my case, I've used a Cinch once before - I'd be keen to try and replicate the problem mentioned above - can anyone loan me a Cinch - any volunteer climbers / fallers :P ?

Interestingly :roll: the other day I got dropped about 8 meters whilst seconding on Trad! If my partner had been using a self locking belay device (Reverso/ATC Guide) it probably would not have happened.
Safe to say my partner will be investing in one of the above mentioned devices...
Climb ZA - Administrator
justin@climbing.co.za

pierre.joubert
Posts: 727
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by pierre.joubert » Thu May 05, 2011 9:44 am

That's why you're supposed to be leading. Which route?

User avatar
Justin
Posts: 3875
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
Real Name: Justin Lawson
Location: Montagu/Cape Town
Contact:

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by Justin » Thu May 05, 2011 10:01 am

Well someone had to remove the gear on the way up :silent:

New route at a new area in Montagu :pirat:
Climb ZA - Administrator
justin@climbing.co.za

User avatar
XMod
Posts: 949
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:38 pm
Real Name: Greg Hart

Wot a cheek!

Post by XMod » Sun May 08, 2011 10:56 am

Reasons to be cheerful - part3

Image

Dont forget, its not just ur belay technique that may be dodgey, make sure ur climber is properly attired! Thorough body.... um.... buddy checks are advised. Always keep ur eye on the climber (not too much problem there! :wink: ). And try not to break ur device either! :roll: :lol:

User avatar
DiabolicDassie
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:09 pm
Real Name: Jan Bradley
Location: Waterval Boven

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by DiabolicDassie » Mon May 09, 2011 12:15 pm

Hmmm, think maybe not enough buddy inspection....leg loop is twisted(upside down logo), You have to be thorough :thumright

Paul Goddard
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:55 pm

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by Paul Goddard » Tue May 10, 2011 9:22 am

Nice pic Xmod !
Yup, always keep both hands on the rope, if that fails you could possibly use your face to break her fall
Hey, did i just say that....
apologies

DavidWade
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:13 am
Real Name: David Wade
Location: Benoni

Re: Assisted breaking device + dodgy belaying

Post by DavidWade » Wed May 11, 2011 12:10 pm

Im not sure if anyone has mentioned this already, but wet rope and gri gri's are not a good combonation

Post Reply