Potential nation wide climbing ban

For the posting and discussion of Access Issues and Closures for Areas around South Africa.
alvaourr
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by alvaourr » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:51 am

Xmod: I applaud your ideals and you passion, I honestly do, but "sticking it to the man" won't get us anywhere except to give climbers in general a bad name with the authorities.

Unfortunately the world you envision is not the reality today.
There are people out there that don't care about the fact that their actions screw things up for everybody else (See Bronkies thread).

Thus the only way to control those people (who obviously cannot control themselves) are to enforce rules.

GeoffJ is not saying "just bend over and take it" like you suggest, just that we try and work with legislation as opposed to blatantly going against it. If you just ignore it and break all the rules you're not contributing to making it better but rather giving "the man" a bigger stick to hit you with.

Maybe I'm just looking at it to logically but I don't see how giving them more reason to burn us is helping.

george nel
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by george nel » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:20 am

That's right,just "roll over",let them walk over you!It's not always a bad thing opposing "the man" as you call them.Ever heard of the word democracy?That's how poletics work,you need parties to oppose government so that they just don't do what they feel like!Imagine if the Allies just rolled over in the WW2,we all would be speaking Duetch today,don't think I would've made the cut,no blond hair and blue eyes.Oppose is good and healthy,the dog must be chained!

mokganjetsi
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by mokganjetsi » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:57 am

tsssshhh! its getting hot in here........ i think we are jumping to too many conclusions about the actual real world impact this will have. i can for the life of me not think that government is on a mission to screw climbers and base jumpers out of their beloved activities. i still give them benefit of the doubt here - that legislation is simply to enforce measures that gives them the ability to better control access & activities in national parks. if we positively engage the issue we might just end up with an arrangement that will benefit us and future generations. damage to rock tends to be permanent and proactive measures will keep knee-jerk responses in check.
nobody is suggesting rolling over and dying on this. i will be first to light a torch and grab my pitchfork if the outcome is prohibitive to climbers. generally i think most responses are driven by dislike of the ruling government and not the issue....... :?

alvaourr
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by alvaourr » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:21 pm

mokganjetsi wrote:that legislation is simply to enforce measures that gives them the ability to better control access & activities in national parks. if we positively engage the issue we might just end up with an arrangement that will benefit us and future generations.
I agree ! :thumleft:

I never said roll over and die.

I just think this should be approached constructively.

Iain
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Iain » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:04 pm

The point I was making with my original post is that there has, as yet, been no indication of what a climbing permit will entail. Simple fee? Certificate of competence? Member of recognised body or organisation?

Which areas will have permits and which won't - and how easy will it be for some areas to suddenly have no future permits available (ie Truitjies)?
How will new crags / bouldering areas get permitted?

As mentioned the easiest way to "manage" an area is to close access.

KZN wildlife has apparently twice tried to close hiking access to an area of the Drakensberg and only negotiated continued access with the MCSA when it was pointed out that the MCSA owned part of the land in question.

Increasingly access to areas not covered by 'established hiking trails' is being closed to the general public - and to all those who slate the MCSA, future access to 'off trail' areas may require you to be carrying a MCSA membership card.
Inspiration exists, but it must find you working. – Pablo Picasso

GBM
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by GBM » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:47 pm

Just had a glimpse of the regulations and would love to know what submissions or comments the MCSA have made or intend making. Must say that it seems to me to be a case of the State looking to cash in (in this case via a permit fee) in every conceivable manner possible - sad fact of the matter is that they have to raise money because they don't have any!

Practically I imagine that it will probably be a case of (at some stage) having to purchase a permit if you want to climb in a nature reserve. BUT, before they learn to draft coherent regulations lets have some fun with these clowns …

From a lawyers perspective I note that the "the sport of climbing rock faces" is not defined! Is free solo-ing a sport? What is a sport – I don’t accept the traditional climbing or free soloing is a sport, it lacks the most fundamental criteria associated with the plain English definition of a sport. Sport is an activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and engaged in competitively. Sport is commonly defined as an organized, competitive and skillful physical activity requiring commitment and fair play.

Traditional climbing and free soloing are not sports … for some it may be a religion or culture activity… and the Bill of Rights states that those persons may not be denied the right, with other members of that community— to enjoy their culture, and practice their religion ….

Remember this one …

"The mountain is not something eternally sublime; it has a great historic and spiritual meaning to us. It stands for us as the ladder of life. Nay, more; it is the ladder of the soul and in a curious way the source of religion. From it came the Law, from it came the Gospel in the Sermon of the Mount. We may truly say that the highest religion is the Religion of the Mountain." — Jan Smuts, South African prime minister, 1919.

So, the solution is an easy one ... The Mountaineers Church of South Africa ... and you get away with it because we already have an MCSA!

Iain
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Iain » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:57 am

"There are only two sports: mountain climbing and bull fighting. Everything else is a game."
Ernest Hemmingway
Inspiration exists, but it must find you working. – Pablo Picasso

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emile
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by emile » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:53 am

GBM: I like the way you think! 8) :thumright

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fridge
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by fridge » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:28 am

GBM you have my vote prime minister (sorry Alfred E. Neuman has my vote for president).
But i think if you pull that quote from Jan Smuts the man just might start hunting us down
and bring in the truth and reconciliation committee and some other crap.

alvaourr
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by alvaourr » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:31 am

Yeah "big up" to the lawyers!

So pretty soon this will be a religious forum as well :lol:
As long as it doesn't all end in all us having to drink "cool-aid" from plastic cups to reach "enlightenment"

SNORT
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by SNORT » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:34 am

Read this: Res Publica: It was in an MCSA journal about 10 years ago.
http://www.mcsa.org.za/cent/06_archive/ ... l97ed.html

The public should own the Mountains.

Most of the posts are as bad as the media. Sensationalistic.

Permits = control = preservation. As the population increases our natural areas get more and more degraded. Despite the permit system at Rocklands huge amounts of people are flocking there and more and more each year and many foreigners. The place is surely going to get destroyed.

So in steps the local landowners and then they allow more people who cut down yellow woods at the base of cracks that are bolted (De Pakhuys).....

pierre.joubert
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by pierre.joubert » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:38 am

GBM, this is an idea I've discussed with a couple of people in the kloofs.

We were thinking more of the Seventh Day Adventurist Church - I mean, we do most of our climbing on the seventh day of the week anyway (be that Saturday/Sunday, depending on what day it happens to be). We already have the Other Gospel according to Matthew, which describes Matthew's journey when he ventured up the Mount Kloof Cederberg and fell off the low crux of a trad 25 there. He did place one cam, climbed high above it, peeled off and it did holdeth. And Matt did thanketh and praise the Lord. And then Matt did vow never to toil with the sin of trusting only one pieceth. (and hasn't been tradding too much after that either, but we will have him turn from his evil bolt-clipping ways).

Religious freedom. I'll take it.

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DAcaveman
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by DAcaveman » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:52 am

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Pierre, GBM, you guys made my day, thank you!

:thumleft:

halleluja!!!

BruceT
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by BruceT » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:15 pm

Just informed my boss I'm off to afternoon prayers...
C ya there

Heinrich
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Heinrich » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:12 pm

We may be a democratic country... but the fact is, we're not. The right to vote freely doesn't make a system democratic. Rule of the masses doesn't mean democracy. If it were really a democracy, minority groups would have had a chance to be heard, but they don't, because they are not the masses and we all know the average IQ of the masses (all over the world, across every possible culture) is always lower than 80. So to get the masses to vote is not difficult: give them a plate of food, make empty promises and shake their hands. Read 1984 by Orwell - it's true to this day, even truer in current times. So don't think sport climbers as a minority group/sport will be heard - even less when all the climbers throw a big zap at the authorities.

Burning tires is obviously not the answer, nor blatantly ignoring these regulations. As many people point out, these regulations are really for the better good and not there to ban all activities. They only regulate access and consequently, environmental impact.

But the matter of the fact is that mountaineering is officially the oldest sport in SA. The MCSA was established back in the latter half of the 1800's, and they have a VERY long and extensive history of nature conservation and negotiation for land access. Where they can, they buy the land, which makes things easier. As far as I know the MCSA is also the biggest land owner in SA.

So, with the MCSA owning more land than anyone, and supporting the oldest sport in SA, AND having been involved in, and launched, so many nature conservation initiatives, they really are SA climbers' authoritative voice. Plus, they have a team of legal experts.

I foresee that being an MCSA member will be the way to go for all climbers in the country. This club really is our only chance of being properly represented at the Big Bro Office...

Please support them, and if you know a thing about any related issues, get in contact with them and offer your services. We have a good and well-established body on the block - lets speak with one voice through them.

VIVA MCSA VI-VAAAAAAA!!!

...Now lets go burn some tires =D

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XMod
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by XMod » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:40 pm

Freedom from the oppressor! VIVA La Revolucion!

- Whats wrong with a bit of cool aid?

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CragRat
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by CragRat » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:31 am

After nearly 40 years of climbing the crags in SA..... I have 2 words for Buyelwa Sonjica "box" that you are..... :pukel:

"Bite Me"

caneratpie
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by caneratpie » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:58 pm

I think that (dare I say, as usual) people are over-reacting about this.

1.) These are draft regulations which might never see the light of day.
2.) Their scope is limited. They apply only in nature reserves. If one reads the National Environmental Management: Protected Areas Act (God forbid) in terms of which these regulations will be passed you will see from s23 that nature reserves are not national parks. So all the current national park areas will be unaffected by these regulations. Nor can private land be declared a nature reserve without the owner's consent. So this will only apply to non-private land outside of national parks which falls within the necessary criteria or to private land with owner's consent. The criteria for declaring an area a nature reserve are not exactly low. Let's just say that Struben's won't easily qualify.
3.) Even if an area is desingated as a nature reserve, the management authority in charge of that reserve may designate a particular area within which an otherwise restricted activity (i.e. climbing) may take place.
4.) Although they are entitled to extort money out of you, the regs don't say you must pay for permission. The regs imagine a cute fenced-off little reserve with an entrance gate and so in practice you'll probably pick up your climber's permit, if you need one, as you enter.

I hope that makes you all feel better.

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XMod
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by XMod » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:03 pm

-feel better? Not really, we dont want 'designated areas'. Any attempts by the suits to contain the spitrit of exploration that is at the very roots of the culture of climbing will always be totally fruitless. It is a useless exercise in futility - we will never fit into 'their' little boxes of how and where 'they' think we should be.

Without this spirit and the freedoms that needs to be indulged on it, this sport will just wither and die. Imagine if the only place you were ever allowed to go and climb was Strubens, without any chance of ever climbing anywhere else! F-k restrictions!!!

I just had the raddest bouldering sesh at a new boulder. The session would never have happened if we had not have wandered off the path a bit. Go forth and explore!

caneratpie
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by caneratpie » Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:37 am

I still think you may be over-reacting a little, although if you are not prepared to accept that some areas are worthy of protection, even from us climbers, by virtue of their natural characteristics, then this debate is a non-starter. If you accept that, then review 1-3 above and the point that it will be in very limited areas that this will apply and you will see that this is hardly a "nation wide ban on climbing" as it was characterised. Also, you will see, it is not going to curb the spirit of exploration. Unless you believe that you should be entitled to go to work in the nude and to drive on the right hand side of the road because to stay on the left restricts your freedom, you have to admit that we need rules for the functioning of society. And, unfortunately, we have here an area where the greenies interests conflict with ours. We can't both have our way - and they are getting theirs - my point is solely that I don't think we must be silly about it. The response here is a measured and reasonable one of very limited extent. So let's not go over-throwing the government with a climber's revolution just yet.

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XMod
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by XMod » Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:40 pm

WHAT!?! Sober reasoning in the ranks???? Cowardice! Shoot this man at dawn!
VIVA La Revolucion! VIVA!

There have never been permits available for any of the areas Ive explored (and Ive looked around a lot) prior to the exploration. This exploration has uncovered some good crags, one of which will hold 300+ routes when eventually climbed out. Permits have since been instituted for some these areas, two of the areas specifically at our request (so that the rest of you can legally enjoy the same crags, without worrying about breaking the regs). My point is simply that unless there is a blanket permit for hiking/climbing anywhere in any reserve this exploration will never be legal or fit into some bearaucrats vsion of how things should be. So you can either meekly follow the regs and only climb at developed areas (which other bolder souls have broken the regs to find for you) or you can say 'stuff it' and walk on the wild side a bit. Just remember without new routes this sport will very quickly become boring and repetitive and die a slow apathetic death.

Do yourself and the sport a favour and dont just roll over for these bearaucratic ignoramouses. If they want financial contributions through permits then they need to develop a system where there is leeway for ppl to bundu bash occasionally (Im not refering to super sensitive areas) and where we can book online from our cellphones at any time of the day or night. Their present 'system' (shitstem!) is not good enough. Just banning everything in order to have the excuse to control peoples movements and activities is a load of crap - sorry! Really lame! Not good enough and not acceptable!

Nothing is better than cranking virgin stone with some mates in a cool area you've never seen before. I have never let a bunch of reg's stop me indulging my addiction to new climbing, Im certainly not going to start now!! - VIVA Freedom!!

caneratpie
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by caneratpie » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:12 pm

XMod wrote:...Im not refering to super sensitive areas...
My point is that it is pretty much only in such areas that these regs will apply - not anywhere else. It'll be only in these designated areas that can't climb - everywhere else remains free game. And given the ratio of everywhere else to super sensitive areas, I'm content.

Iain
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Iain » Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:44 pm

In the realm of hiking, the public are only given permits to hike designated hiking trails.

If you want to hike "off trail" like go and do Du Toits Kloof Peak for example, you can only get a permit if you or the leader of your party belongs to a recognised mountaineering organisation (MCSA). This minimises catastrophic events cascades that would otherwise occur and protects sensitive areas.

I see the same thing coming for climbing. If you want to go explore, you will have to belong to the MCSA. Otherwise you will only get to climb the same established crags & boulders until all the vegetation has been stomped to death.

How many of you can remember climbing at Legoland when it had soft spongey ankle deep grass...
Inspiration exists, but it must find you working. – Pablo Picasso

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XMod
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by XMod » Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:03 pm

Iain thats just crazy. Why must we belong to one private organisation to walk/climb on Public land managed by another organisation? It lacks logic. But then nothing seems to be logical or fair in the new South Africa, new 'democracy' - same bullshit.

In France the wild areas are open to all with no entrance charge. If you own land adjacent to such an area you are obliged to allow people to cross your land free of charge to gain access to those areas. Seems to me local reserve management need to learn a thing or ten from our counterparts on the continent.

Renegade explorers mount up! Lets ride!

Iain
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Iain » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:13 pm

I know it's crazy!

Last year in Catalunya I walked a piece of 'camino' on a rest day with a local. The path went through a farmers property, between the house and the chicken shed - 2m from the back door.

When I expressed my concern, I was told that it was a general public right of way.

Ah, but then again France & Spain are first world countries.
Inspiration exists, but it must find you working. – Pablo Picasso

Ray
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Ray » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:57 am

Sorry to bring this one up again, but a colleague of mine sent me the draft admission of guilt fines published last month for comment - FYI.

http://www.polity.org.za/searchadvanced_lb.php

See bottom right - Admission of guilt fines - Page 8, Regulation 30a.

A fine of R2500 is applicable for climbing in a national park without permission of management (a permit?)

Heinrich
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Heinrich » Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:56 am

Surely we should try to negotiate? Who here serve on MSCA committees? How do we approach this? How do other sports, mountain biking, for instance go about with these regulations? Who here can give us legal advise?

If I climb in Cedarberg gorge with my MCSA membership, is this enough to satisfy whoever is in charge of the Magalies Nature Reserve area?

Lowry
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Lowry » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:37 am

This is truly awesome and why you gotta love Africa....

In a National park or World Heritage site i.e. the Drakensberg....admission of guilt fines...

Throwing discharging or rolling a stone - R1000 fine!
Visual imaging of animals...for the purpose of visual hunting without a permit - R1500 fine
Bathing or diving in a World Heritage site outside permitted areas - R1000 fine.
Playing a musical instrument that may disturb a species - R2000 fine
Intentionally interrupting or annoying another person engaged in the proper use of a national park - R1000

Only bet it to email commenst to Gcowan@deat.gov.za

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ScottS
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by ScottS » Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:05 am

Lowry wrote:Playing a musical instrument that may disturb a species - R2000 fine
Mental image of Vuvuzela toting tourists being caught red faced by the long arm 'o the law :jocolor:
At the chaaaaains boet!!

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Justin
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Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Post by Justin » Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:26 am

They're certainly trying to cover all the bases! I think they forgot to include a fine for breathing the air in the park :?

See below a screen shot of the climbing / abseiling fines
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Climb ZA - Administrator
justin@climbing.co.za

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