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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:45 am 
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Hello guys!
Just a quick wander about weather those of you who went off to Boven Rock Rally thought of the same thing as others regarding sponsor involvement in the prizes side of things.
Some think that even though the overpowering presence of the pretty banners and the free-bee stickers and name -droppin t-shirts , and \"thank-u- to all the sponsors \" stuff being posted all over the show - the sponsors havent really pulled their weight in the category of prizes this year.
Sure enough the event was great and all but somehow the feeling of the over advertised under prized show was left lingering after the event-

For example Beal and saltic and La sportiva and North face and Roca ropes and all the brands pulled in to be advertised all over the show but somewhat there were no beal ropes to win over or roca ropes or small bundle of quickdraws or even puney black diamond belts or chalkbags or other little cool items as a marketing memoirs included in the prizes.
Capestorm seems to really hold the event in disregard as their input into the prizes hardly called for the general publicity and hype they get from the event.
Maybe it is not the sponsors - maybe it is the organisers who didnt focus on that side of things and simply didnt push hard enough to balance out the advertising hype and the industry wellbeing with the prize selection and rewarding with awesome prizes those who make this industry happen-
-ie: all the participating climbers --at such an awesome event as the Boven roc rally.
Maybe i'm wrong. Regardless- thanks to those who put into the basket- and to those that didnt - dont warry! we will still buy your stuff - we have no other choice - he he

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:36 pm 
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I didnt get to the Rally :( so cant comment on the prizes, but there seems to be a general lack of support locally for those involved in the gymnastic / athletic side of climbing (ie: sport climbing and bouldering). People would rather pour millions into mountaineering expeditions so they can sell the name Everest. It sux! 99% of local climbing revolves around the afformentioned disciplines, one would think they would put more bucks into realistic grass roots development. Mountaineering expeditions feed absolutely diddly squat back into the climbing we pactice in SA.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:40 pm 
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I wonder if it would even be possible to rustle up a single sponsor for a trad climbing event...


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:48 pm 
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I wonder what percentage of Petzls world wide turn over is from SA climbers. Could it be more than 0.01%? Maybe less.

I wonder if climbers form a greater part of Cape Storm's customer base. Most likely less than 10%. Cape Union Mart's main market is clothing buyers. How many of these are climbers? Possibly 1%. How many active climbers (min-std: lead, on average, one route every month) are there in SA at any time? Could it be 4000....most likely less. That is =-0.0001% of the population as a market - Great! That means that Street Sweeper is 1 in 10000...you deserve a prize just for climbing in SA! But pity the fellows who are expected to give the prizes.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:58 pm 
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Real Name: Christo Snyman
Hi All

Just though I will quickly post a reply, from a sponsors point of view!

Working with Adventure Inc (Montrail, Buff, Julbo) we also had some involvement in this event and almost all other climbing events in the country, as well as local publications (guide books, SA Mountain), websites (Climb.co.za) and more.

We did have some prizes on offer during the event, as we always do, but this is normally a small part of the contribution sponsors make to events. Very often events will not be able to go ahead without the help of sponsors, since we often contribute to the cost of hosting, printing t-shirts or even get involved in the actually work (organizing of event). Cost to us can often exceed R10 000 for a event and there are a large number of events in the country so the cost do add up. There are normally only a small group of people getting involved and offering support to events and regular contributors will be companies like Adventure Inc, RAM Mountain (BD, Beal, Saltic and more), Eiger Equipment (Petzl and more), Outward Ventures (La Sportiva), Capestorm and a couple of others.

This is a small industry and everyone involved, from the organizers to the importers have a lot of passion for the sport and we get involved as much due to this passion as we do for the exposure that we might get. Grigri and Marshall mentioned the size of the industry, which I also believe is important to keep in mind.

I can only speak for myself, but we dedicate a very large portion of our budget to marketing. This is almost always geared towards growing and developing the sport and we often work with RAM Mountain to maximise our the benefit to the sport and our various companies. This includes, supporting events, athletes (up and coming and PRO), expeditions, bolting, development, publications and various other things. If you add this up the contributions made by each company starts becoming very significant, often much larger than the business return received, but we do not complain because we love the sport and want to be involved.

Anyway just my point of view, I always feel that in small niche sports it's a good idea to \"support those who support the sport\", but then again I will say that, being a supplier myself.

Cheers
Christo
Adventure Inc


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:10 pm 
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Do you climb because its fun? Do you go to the Rock Rally because its a huge festival of like-minded people and bound to be an awesome party whether you win a block of chalk or not?

Do you go to test yourself against your own boundaries in the sport, or to benchmark against your peers? Or to just be there and wear the t-shirt?

I don't think that many of us there went with the idea of dragging home a big bag of loot...

Thanks sponsors, I thought the prizes were pretty cool - maybe not as big as last year, but Im sure there are reasons and statistics. Especially since you don't actually have to. And yea, Im sure the biggest prize of all is that they help make the event happen in the first place.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:26 pm 
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yes i do agree !
There is huge financial involvement that sponsors are committed to- prior to any event like rallies , comps etc. and such commitment to the sport is appreciated and understood on the basis of climbers' purchasing their favourate brands , supporting the brands and spreading the word and all and continuing so after they pass their active careers and move on to 4*4 market... yes i do understand that for Capestorm to concentrate on spending cash for the prizes at the rock rally is a silly accounting excercise- but hey Mr. marshall- climbers also have friends and families and other hobbies and promote product which is not cheap and which most climbers in any case hold in high regard- such events do not end on .01% sales for capestorm that year - it just simply means that if a manufacturer holds an attitude like that towards the community that opens up an avenue for other brands to shine out and that sucks if you call yourself a sponsor.
It is easy to drop an attitude like : hey what u on about dude- i climb for the sheer fun and the event was cool regardless the prizes -
I do climb for same reasons and do not aspire to bags of spot prizes at every opportunity at all- what gnaws at my bone is the constant excuses that climbers hear how small the industry is and how hard it is to survive in it and how it all gets dispersed before the event takes place and all.
In the meantime we stick the free stickers on our cars and buy the goods and support the industry that has been nothing but growing since the start of it.

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 Post subject: cont.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:28 pm 
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All i want to say that regardless the involvement of the sponsors in putting an event like this together with the organisers there was a mock up regarding the prizes- this year the prizes didnt stand up to the marketing involved in the event. call me unreasonable but i do not feel that climbers should be loyal to any of these brands- just because their banners were there and they contributed to an event from the organizational point of view -which in the end is a marketing tool for their product anyway..??..( hey-yet again -thanx to the sponsors!!!)
Hey why dont Rally organisers advertise (as an experiment ) one of them days, a totally prize-less rally-ie.you pay your entry fee and you climb - u see preetty banners and you go home. That actually sounds like an awesome event to me!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:32 pm 
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\"I wonder if it would even be possible to rustle up a single sponsor for a trad climbing event...\"

Would trad climbers buy into a trad climbing competion? I hope not. But if they entered for the prizes, the prizes would have to be proper...like beer & liquor. Only pimps & sport climbers want a free chalk bag.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:48 am 
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I also think that we should take into account that Boven is there, with or without the Roc Rally. The sponsors don't do much to develop the area, come in for an annual event and leave. Development of the sport, in my eyes, is what happens when friends go out to the crags on a weekly basis.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:30 am 
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Not being at the Roc Ralley I cannot comment specificaly on that event, but in my general experience is that the sponsors are not getting more than they deserve. They are often screwed over by big promices and don't always get the exposure they desurve.

Anyway, the contract between sponsor and organiser (verbal or written) is between the sponsor and organiser, it is up to them to agree on a level of involvment and exposure and ensure that the contract is adheared to. Not the competitors, or consumers. If you didn't like the prizes, complain to the organiser, or boycot the event next year, or run you own better event, to show everybody how useless the roc ralley was.

If you are not happy, organise your own event, and then you can tell the sponsors to sod off.

Regarding the no prize comp thing. An example is the \" Skanky \"series running in Durban. No Prizes, No Sponsors, no entrance fee, One biest Judge and a ton of fun.

I personally would love to run more events without sponsors, I hate applying for sponsorship, because I know it is the same people who step up all the time, but events could not run without them.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:17 am 
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Many of you say that you climb for the fun of it. Then why have a comp, why have a scoring system? So you can take home some free gear or the even better, the prestige of being a climbing super-man/woman and pumping up your ego? Stop being hypocritical. Take one side or the other.

Competitions are a waste of time.

I climb because I enjoy it and the people involved in the activity (well, most people). My competition is with myself and my shortfalls. I am constantly trying to improve my technique, style, physical and mental strength when I climb. I could not give a hoot if my climbing partner is 8a material and I am only a 6c. If I want to climb 8a, I need to work harder, climb more, prepare my mind better and learn more. I am the only person I need to compete with to get to where I want to be. Who cares if 1/2 the climbing community cranks harder than me? For me, competition spoils all that I love about climbing. It ruins the nature of what I gain from climbing.

With that said, I would like to thank the organisers and the sponsors for putting together a fantastic weekend of climbing, partying and just all-round enjoyment! Thanks for the effort guys!
For me it's not about the competition. It's about the people, the climbing (and learning) and a most fantastic venue!

See you next year!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:11 pm 
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Real Name: Niel Mostert
True Arican Climber, but the flipside of the coin is that people dont all climb for the same reasons, same as everything else we do in life.It's kinda hard to criticise (sp?) motives I think. If you climb for pushing yourself, prizes, booze, money,fame, chicks, you've still gotta find your own motivation to get out and crank, whatever that may be. Personally I'm not big on comps, love the prizes but hate the pressure. I climb for the chicks. 8)

See y'all out there!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:23 pm 
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Location: SA
street sweeping fool wrote:
Maybe it is not the sponsors - maybe it is the organisers who didnt focus on that side of things and simply didnt push hard enough


I don't agree, I think Gustav and his team did quite a bit of pushing. I quite liked the "local" prizes from the garage, local eateries etc. I know I very seldom (if ever) stop in town to support the locals.


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 Post subject: Boven Prizes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:05 pm 
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Location: Tokai, Cape Town
Real Name: Simon Bernhardt
So here is the question, Would you want a lot of small prizes so that lots of people get something or would you prefer a few large prizes? If you add up the retail value of the prizes given out at the event it would be no less than R25000,00. Arranging prizes is no easy task and the suppliers get drained many times during the course of the year. If you add all of these up it would require each supplier to spend over R50000,00 per year, for just marketing at the events bevermind any other event. And what about when they put there prices up due to increased overheads, will we complain again?


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 Post subject: madwomen
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:44 pm 
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Here's an idea for you climbers that think competitions should be about sponsors having an attidtude of Give Give Give... Why don't you put your hand up and get involved free of charge? You can have the very prestigious job of gaining sponsors for these events. If you gonna complain do something about it. Maybe you can do a better job. My guess - you will finaly realise how much goes into it. Have you any idea how time consuming it is, how much of your own money is spent gathering the prizes, calling the sponsors... ? What do you think there is a professional team that organises this and get's paid - it's more like a couple of individuals that actually care about growing these events/industry and offer their own time and money so that you can walk away with freebies. Quiet frankly if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. Any volunteers? I thought not!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:57 pm 
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Anyone involved in these competitions is expecting a return in one form or another - Gustav gets more clients to stay at his pad and the sponsors will want us to buy their gear, the \"freebies\" are tax deductable advertising. Getting involved \"free of charge\" for me are the people like Darryl and Lofty from the MCSA who've commited their time to bolting the routes that are now used for the event.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:19 am 
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hello -just passing through!
You seem to know some statistics. yes, the prizes were most probabily adding up to a lot when you put in the joint RETAIL value of the lot together- however - i dont agree with madman on the sorry issue of- how much time out of ones own time it takes to organise such an event etc etc...- such is the attitude of someone who actually does something because it is their job and daily bread--and if it doesnt pay one enough in this way or the other then one should quit it- it doesnt help complaining you know- if it is too hard to pull the event in its entirety off the ground including prizes then the job is not for the complaining one!-
yet again climbers are the ones who absorb all that whining and say ag well what can you do - it was an awesome event and whatever the marketing side of things we dont care- we climb for chicks or whatever- i mean that if you are organising an event and commit into making it a SPONSORED EVENT- do not be a whine - just make it worth everybodys while ... everybody puts in time you know- participating climbers too - you know- can the industry understand that too-
As climbers we are open to future equipment purchases -isnt it what sponsors or organisers try to achieve afterall???
Forget the fact that the venue was half finished and the rally T-shirts are practically unwearable- competitors still paid full entrance fee, climbers still paid their entrance fee which supposed to cover part of the organization fee - and sponsors put in R25000 RETAIL value of total prizes-wow- lets see how many brands were advertized : BD, north face, cape storm, roca , beal, julbo, buff, montreal ,la sportiva, saltic, local businesses, adventure companies, toursm companies etc etc ( not even half these brands made the prizes- that is if you exclude the free bee stickers)
That is what i mean - all you hear is sponsors winging and climbers cheering on \"- its great -its great- we dont care -\".
ok- before somebody thinks that climbers want freebee prizes all the time- i will say to all those who replied so far - climbing is climbing - 1 thing but the industry is the industry- an another thing- if industry wants to advertise and commit to climbing events let them commit - is it so bad to judge and express ones opinion on the commitment of the industry based on the previous years performance then??? i guess one has only got a right to express ones views - right???
Sorry guys i still think sponsors /organizers ( whoever ) this year messed up the prizes - however hoping to feed our faces with their boring brand stickers and everpresent banners , regardless the fact that the event was trully an awesome one.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:31 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:38 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:52 am 
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Come on!

Image :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:41 am 
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Filter woes aside heres a thought (and in no way is this meant as a criticism of those organising comps - keep it up!): Why do the prizes have to be bits of gear we already own or some lame t-shirt? You cant beat good old hard cash! At least it feels like a winnings when you get it. Also why do the only sponsors have to be the 'hard done by' climbing industry types? If these events really cost that much to put on then try get sponsorship from someone who actually has money. Why not Red Bull, Coca Cola, FNB - yeah yeah banks have got money! And dont use that lame a s s excuse that climbing is a minority sport and we are too few to generate any capital bla bla. Rubbish! To the average Joe rock climbing is exciting, scary and dangerous, all brilliant elements to use as marketing tools. With just a little imagination this could work. What about a 5min video of the event, famed up with lots of big falls hot climber babes and all the other junk that will have mass appeal, which can the be sold to television for even more of that lovely cash stuff.......Just a thought.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:53 am 
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Real Name: Christo Snyman
Hi Guys

One of the reasons you will see banners for many brands at the event, would be because each of the companies involved represent a large number of brands, they are not individual entities and form part of our greater collection.

It is also not 100% fair to organizers comparing their events to those held internationally, its a different market. This is not industry whining it's just the reality, we know it and plan around it.

It is also not fair to importers to compare our prices with those of REI, there are many factors affecting this. 1) Most products have import duties as high as 20%-40%, which immediately makes it half as expensive 2) shipping cost to South Africa is pretty expensive 3) depending on the products one often makes small orders so you do not qualify for large discounts. 4) many other factors. We work in many different fields (cycling, running, outdoor and off course climbing), and I can assure you that margins in climbing is by far the lowest to keep products as affordable as possible. Remember we still do need to make a living, but it does not mean we rip off our fellow climbers to do so.

We keep on saying the markets are different, but this really is true. The Flagship REI store in Seattle will sell more sports climbing gear in 5 months than the ENTIRE South African industry combined. This is one store in one city, we cannot compare.

And also do not get me wrong, I'm am not whining, I enjoy what I do and I decided to be involved in this industry, and I will have it no other way.

Cool
Christo


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:49 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:15 am 
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Guest

Fair enough, you obviously feel strongly about this. Just wondering are you talking about my products when you compare prices? Or am I taking the brunt of the attack for someone else's product?

Anyway, I am always open to critism and you are welcome to mail me christo@adventureinc.co.za and this is open to anyone else who feel strongly about this

Christo


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:43 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:10 pm 
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Ahhhh I see the light..... we live in Africa so we must have the perception that the world owes us everything for free. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:37 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:06 pm 
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Can I be so bold as to ask for more detail on all the climbing film makers, and could I have your help in filming and editing the next comp I organise. And could you help me get it aired on TV, even if is is 30 seconds after the news. They did show the national arm wrwstling champ, Climbing must be as exciting as that? and could I get this all writen into a contract to take to a bank(or other corprate) to ask for sponsorship?

I need help on this one, anyone?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:53 am 
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I really hope I'm wrong, but my guess is that you're going to be sadly dissapointed by the lack of action from the big talkers DaveD...

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