Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

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andrew p
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby andrew p » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:37 pm

just be cool.

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Q20
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby Q20 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:35 pm

Folks,

We live in a country with more rock than you can point a cheat-stick at.
So if someone has invested time and effort in preparing a new route (sport of trad), and you know about this, then why go jump on it without his/her knowledge before it is open when it will most likely result in bad vibes??
Bad vibes are uncool, and since we have so much awesome rock around there is plenty to do until said new route is opened, or the green light is given to give it a whirl.

Leaving known projects that are actually 'in progress' alone is a simple act of respect and consideration. I would say that maintaining friendships and a community buzzing with passion and psyche for their sport should be more important than hedonistic actions that will invariable corrode these.

I can only speak for myself, but if I have spent hours finding, cleaning and working a new route, then I am usually quite keen to open it. Is this selfish? Maybe, maybe not - it is just the way it is. Likewise, if someone were to barge in a do it first, even though they knew I was looking forward to completing the project cycle, then I would be a bit bleak and deflated. Again, I am not trying to justify my reaction, it is just the way it is. None of us 'own' the rock or have a 'right' to be first, but at the end of the day it is lekker when your mates support and encourage your efforts rather than poach them. Climbing is just a game, and we are the players. I think we collectively have more fun when everyone plays fair.

As with many things in life, it is easy to justify things to suit your own ends or view on the matter. However, if you are about to do something and that little voice inside says: "dude, you are about to be dick" then one probably does not need to intellectualise it further.
One life, one body. Use them well.

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Forket
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby Forket » Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:35 pm

Love how this post has developed:D

Richard we dont all live in capetown:P cant just go pointing sticks at rocks and call them mountains up here, north:P

Ebert Nel
Thanks for the response

smityb
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby smityb » Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:09 pm

I thought there was a surprising amount of rock up north. Just have to wave your cheat stick around a bit harder before you spy a line :p

mokganjetsi
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby mokganjetsi » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:49 am

what Richard said

i do not think there's any disagreement as to the assholiness of stealing somebody else's line. the discussion is rather at which point the bolter / finder turns into the donkey by clinging to a route they can't open. a year? 2? i guess it depends on the route, the location & the amount of effort that went into it (think newborn).

unlike the surfing crowd, I find the generally good vibes and ethic of sharing in the climbing community awesome :thumleft:

Chris F
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby Chris F » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:26 pm

Tristan wrote:As long as you are clear about the style of your ascent. Pre-placing and "rehearsing" is a tried and trusted style, affectionately known as, "head-pointing". Ultimately up to you, just don't claim you climbed placing, onsight, when you rapped in and placed a piece or seven.


Sounds about right. It's easy to say all gear should be placed on lead to claim a FA, but if the reality is that if you are pushing your limits of ability and if the gear placed in extremis not being in 100% has a real chance of injury or death, then I think having one or two bits preplaced on the FA is probably acceptable. It's then up to repeaters to improve on the ascent ethically, either by going onsight, ground up or placing gear as they go.

And there is plenty of unclimbed rock within a couple of hours of Jhb/Pta it just takes a bit of effort to go out and find it, rather than wait in the wings and swoop in as soon as you hear rumour of anyone else finding anything worthwhile.

There are potential lines at Boven and in the Magalies Kloofs which I spotted some 15 years ago which have yet to be climbed, if I'm reading the latest guidebook right.

Ghaznavid
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby Ghaznavid » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:18 pm

Chris F wrote:Sounds about right. It's easy to say all gear should be placed on lead to claim a FA, but if the reality is that if you are pushing your limits of ability and if the gear placed in extremis not being in 100% has a real chance of injury or death, then I think having one or two bits preplaced on the FA is probably acceptable. It's then up to repeaters to improve on the ascent ethically, either by going onsight, ground up or placing gear as they go.


But where is the line between that and claiming a first ascent on top rope?

I agree that whatever you do, you should make full disclosure.
"There is something fundamentally wrong in treating the Earth as if it were a business in liquidation." Herman E Daly

MarkM
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby MarkM » Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:02 pm

Forket wrote:
I got one more question.

When sending a traditional route, I believe gear should be placed, whats the general opinion on this?
I believe gear should be placed on a send otherwise you doing a sport route. It could also then be argued that placing draws on a sport line is the same equivalent but it just doesn't seem the same.



In the same vein, then sport routes should be done placing the draws on lead?
Open hand, open mind...

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Forket
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby Forket » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:15 am

Just like with this line(BB Alex Bester and Ebert Nel), All my projects are open. If you can get to the chains before I can, I'll gladly accept that I bolted the AWESOME line you did:) This is because, I'm more interested in seeing new lines going up, then taking them all for myself. On that note, if you have a cool project lying around, don't let it lie around unclimbed for a year, I'm not gonna waste my airtime if you haven't bothered climbing it for a year. When your bolts go into the rock, you no longer own them. You enter them into our climbing community of South Africa.

As for traditional lines, same principle follows. This post was started because I saw Hector and Andrews route. You guys have been working it on off for some time and I respect that you guys are trying. If you leave it again, please notify the rest of us, scavengers, as the line looks so cool! I will gladly try it:D

My views toward traditional lines, place gear or you're doing a sport line. If the majority of the gear is placed on a send, even if you clip a stuck piece of gear, a pitton or A bolt, then I believe its a trad send. If you open lines with preplaced gear, our morals/ethics are different.

Lastly, there are a few places where people have bolted a single bolt, showing an IP of a route. I personally don't think you deserve to bolt the line if you leave that bolt hanging alone for a year. I'll however leave it for the year or start encouraging you to do it:)


IN the photo:

Falco Filotto doing a dyno that we believe is way harder (31/8a+) and might not be repeated in many years. A case of beer for the person to repeat FLIGHT SIMULATOR 1st is up for grabs and thank you MCSA for kindly sponsoring the bolts for Narrow Kloof. This kloof contains a lot of hard lines, but still has the potential for about 10-15 easier lines on the opposing face. If you an avid bolter, go check it out. If you think you strong, I still have 2 open projects in Narrow kloof that need names:)

Ebert Nel
this opening new lines game we play is about mutual respect and after that it's about growing the climbing community.
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henkg
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby henkg » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:17 pm

Arjan stole a problem and appropriately called it "Skobbejak".

Piracy is theft of intellectual property.
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

Marshall1
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby Marshall1 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:35 pm

.
Last edited by Marshall1 on Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jimbo
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby jimbo » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:35 pm

regarding pre-placed gear:

As tristan said just be honest about what you have done but i would hope that climbers strive for the best style possible. I try to onsight placing gear on routes that are within a certain grade. But I have no issue with dogging routes on lead or checking out moves and gear on toprope for things that are too hard for me or they are first ascents. For red points I always place as much gear on lead as is possible or practical and make sure to place crucial or crux gear.

Another interesting topic is about permanent gear left on trad routes after they have been opened, such as a wire that has been hammered into a crack. I appreciate gear left to rap off a route or gear that will prevent a likely injury but very often the route can be climbed without the fixed gear. In these situations permanent gear annoys me and I wish it wasn't there. Should the first ascentionist remove fixed gear that he used or take it out once he has opened the climb? If you come along and climb an established route with fixed gear that you deem unnecessary, do you have the right to remove it?

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dirktalma
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby dirktalma » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:04 pm

Hmm, what's the difference between a bolt and a nut that you hammer in which then becomes fixed gear?

Just a thought

Camp
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby Camp » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:57 pm

Great stuff! This should best be discussed at a pub over a few beers!

Ansie
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby Ansie » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:39 pm

When I still studied in Grahamstown I went climbing a few times with Keith James and the boys from his school. Anyway, we were at a new-ish crag and there was a nice looking easy line with a piece of string tied trough the first bolt. One of the boys asked him what it means. And I think he gave a very nice reply. "It means if you climb it, you don't tell everyone else about it".
I think in that situation it is quite fair, obviously the crags in the Eastern Cape see less traffic than the ones in the rest of the country, and the climbers in the EC have less spots where they can climb (so according to me different rules apply). I have never bolted a sport-climbing line, and I will never open a trad route, and when I do go climbing my favorite part of the day is when I sit in my hammock and nibble on cookies, so take the following opinion with a pinch of salt. Most people really want other people to know that they climbed something really hard. That is why the 8a.nu website exists. And people who discovered a nice line and started bolting it (same goes for people who saw a nice trad project and took the effort to clean it and so on...) they also want credit for their effort. So if you really really REALLY must climb that route Ebert (because like you said it looks really awesome to you and you feel drawn to overhanging routes) then maybe the most "ethical" thing would be to climb it in such a way that no one (except your belayer) would ever know.

But of course like you already know because everyone else already said it in some way or the other, the more sociable thing to do would be to coax the guy who is working it into spending the weekend with you and trying it together. Cause (for me) climbing is a social activity as well.

Actually I think the climbers in SA still has very good ethics and are very lucky in a sense to be able to bolt and discover lines. I cant imagine that anyone would give a second thought to anyone else's private project in a place like Arco unless the route is really really hard. If it is below a 30 then 10 people would go up that line before the weekend is over.

Ansie
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby Ansie » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:52 pm

And if anyone wonders...no one actually attempted to climb the IP route to which I referred earlier ...just so you know ;)

Chris F
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Re: Traditional Climbing Ethics vs MY Sport Climbing Ethics

Postby Chris F » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:39 pm

Ansie wrote:Actually I think the climbers in SA still has very good ethics and are very lucky in a sense to be able to bolt and discover lines


It's not like unclimbed rock is at a premium. It's more that it takes a bit of effort to actually find a new line and clean / bolt and climb it. And some people are just too bloody lazy and would rather leech off other people's hard work than make an effort themselves.


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