Expansion bolts available on the south african market????

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DerrickStarling
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Expansion bolts available on the south african market????

Postby DerrickStarling » Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:24 pm

Hello from Zimbabwe,
I am looking for bolts, drill bits and hangers to equip some routes here that are not suitable for trad climbing. The rock types are Granite, Basalt and Banded Ironstone. I cannot find any viable options here and it will cost a hell of a lot less to source them in SA.

P.s. I have permission to bolt most of these projects and plan to get permission for the other ones before bolting.

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Xenomorph
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby Xenomorph » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:32 am

Dear Derrick

For dry climate: 10x90mm Fischer FBN or Hilti HSA-R Bolts

Humid or at the coast use glue-ins with FISCHER V 360 S CHEM MORTAR

Hangers you can purchase from City Rock/ Mountain mail order

Get the best bits you can afford,Rutherford has Makita bits at good prices, when in stock.

Cheers
Cormac

pierre.joubert
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby pierre.joubert » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:34 am

Derrick, send me an email.

my username at gmail dot com

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Scott
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby Scott » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:37 am

fischer bolts can be had here

http://www.upat.co.za/branches/item/139-cape-town

Just remember to get the FBN-II 10x90 you can also tell them the "rock climbing" bolts and they will square you away.

I think mountainmailorder.co.za has them as well so one email or phone call and they can ship it all to you.

Cheers
Scott

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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby andrew p » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:45 pm

In zim expansion bolts will last 40 yrs
Ship from JHB prob cheaper.
I get my bolts from a local supplier here at R16.5 each inc VAT, about 5 R less than Hilti and same grade steel and local is lekker, especially with the crap rand. Will post the details just now.
Hangers I think cheapest from Mountain Pursuits, google it, speak to Jacques. Again they are made locally ( :
Are the cliffs good? Got any pics??
Good luck.
Andrew

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DerrickStarling
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby DerrickStarling » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:45 pm

Thanx for all the replies folks,
andrew p wrote:In zim expansion bolts will last 40 yrs
Ship from JHB prob cheaper.
I get my bolts from a local supplier here at R16.5 each inc VAT, about 5 R less than Hilti and same grade steel and local is lekker, especially with the crap rand. Will post the details just now.
Hangers I think cheapest from Mountain Pursuits, google it, speak to Jacques. Again they are made locally ( :
Are the cliffs good? Got any pics??
Good luck.
Andrew

We have some great cliffs here. Thing is, mostly they haven't been developed. We have a handful of climbing areas near Harare (450km away from me in Bulawayo) which are regularly used by MCZ members.

Matopos is a half hour drive away, being one of the worlds largest granite outcroppings, its about 3100 km² and has great potential (I'm sure there has been climbing there before but i cant find any literature on it).

Last year I did some climbing in the Batoka gorge (below Victoria Falls), a very cool spot, lots of loose rock tho i suppose that is normal for any adventure climbing.

Recently i went to a new spot recommended by an ex zim climber called Hoko range, I think this has some of the best potential of any rocks i have been to in Zim. It offers what i recon could be seven different areas each with at least two crags per area. I need to get back up there and have a better scout around.

We also have a small 'Playground' within the city limits called hillside dams witch is mostly bouldering but I have put up a few short routes in desperate need of bolting.

I have been trying to get some photos up but I'm not winning, ill get it rite so keep an eye on the thread for them.

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Forket
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby Forket » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:19 am

Sup Derrick, is there anything else than granite, aka, sandstone, limstone, etc? Looking for any big overhanging wall with grips and maybe a massive roof would be a bonus:)

Ebert

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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby ccjoubert » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:37 am

Hi Derrick, if access is not a problem would you be able to add some of these places and routes on the climbing wiki. If you send the info to me I can also help with this. I think we would all really appreciate it.

Chris

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DerrickStarling
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby DerrickStarling » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:03 pm

Forket wrote:Sup Derrick, is there anything else than granite, aka, sandstone, limstone, etc? Looking for any big overhanging wall with grips and maybe a massive roof would be a bonus:)

Ebert


We have quite a variety of different rock types, last month I visited a spot with awesome banded ironstone. It had an overhanging section, i wouldn't say its huge but the guy who put me onto the area described it as "Huge roofs"(then again i only managed to explore a small section before getting rained out) so how big do u consider big? There is the basalt of the Batoka Gorge has (in my mind) a lot of potential (being between 100m and 250m deep with steep to slightly overhanging sections). Then there are a few areas i want to explore such as the tshlotsho cliffs in the south east of zim (sandstone) and Nyanga in the east (sandtone on top of granite).

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DerrickStarling
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby DerrickStarling » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:06 pm

ccjoubert wrote:Hi Derrick, if access is not a problem would you be able to add some of these places and routes on the climbing wiki. If you send the info to me I can also help with this. I think we would all really appreciate it.

Chris

I'll put some stuff together, rite now its all trad and top roping, would u like it all or perhaps wait till its bolted?

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justfly
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby justfly » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:02 pm

Hey there Derrick
sounds like you have some "good stuff" up there
post some pictures of the rock you've seen, might get the juices going for us down south,
inspire some road trips , maybe some one will bring the bolts up for you .:thumleft:

Chris
who needs big jugs when you've got a tight crack

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DerrickStarling
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby DerrickStarling » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:36 am

justfly wrote:Hey there Derrick
sounds like you have some "good stuff" up there
post some pictures of the rock you've seen, might get the juices going for us down south,
inspire some road trips , maybe some one will bring the bolts up for you .:thumleft:

Chris

Hi Chris,
Photos coming soon, I'll open a new thread for them as soon as i can figure out how to get them up, they all seem too big or the link seems to go up as plain text rather than link to them on Flickr. I'm free all day today so hopefully i can figure it out. If all else fails I'll have to resize each one and upload it that way.

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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby Justin » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:19 am

Here is one of Derrick's photos (below) - looks awesome! Can't wait to see more :thumleft:
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DerrickStarling
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby DerrickStarling » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:15 pm

Have a look at these :afro: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=11308

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Justin
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby Justin » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:42 pm

Back on subject:

Andrew - would love to get the details of you local supplier.

I was at Hilti and Upat today.
Hilti had a 30% price increase 2 days ago and will now only discount by 15% (so about R2000 per box of 50).

Upat - Sold me the incorrect spec bolts (based on the assumption that they were advised on which bolts to supply to climbers).
:!: :!: If you have bought bolts from Upat recently, please check with the supplier to see if they are rolled or pressed? :bom:

I bought my bolts (stated that I wanted the 'climbing' ones and also quoted the correct requirements). I then noticed that the box label stated '304' (and we all know that we want '316'). The sales person told me that this was a label printing error/typo... however I insisted further and Tony (tech guy) came down and reassured me the bolts were 316.
We spoke further and during the conversation established that the bolts I had bought were 'cut/pressed' and not 'rolled'.
I returned the bolts and they are bringing down stock from JHB.

Andy correct me if I am wrong, it is my understanding that pressed/cut bolts are more susceptible to Stress Corrosion Cracking (SCC) which we have experienced in the past??
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mountainmailorder
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby mountainmailorder » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:46 pm

you definitely want the FBN A4 10/15+23/90 A4 stainless steel (Art. Nr. 146-1007).
not the EXA.

and "the label on the box is wrong"? hmmm.

from Fischer, verbatum:
"Both the EXA and the FBN are acceptable in terms of the desired loads. The
EXA and FBN are available in various steel grades including A4 (316
stainless steel). The preference / shift by the climbing fraternity toward
the FBN is due to the manufacturing process of the FBN and the long term
advantage / behaviour this process offers when compared to the EXA, the
preference is not related to the grade of steel or the load ability of the
anchor.

The fundamental difference is in the manufacturing process, the EXA is
milled / turned from a rod while the FBN (being the new entrant), this when
compared to the EXA is according to the cold forming process. With this
cold form process the stainless steel is less likely to get pitted and
result in stress crack corrosion (where chlorides attack the scratches in
the stainless steel).

A few climbing companies have in the past opted for the A2 (304) stainless
steel anchors, we recommend the A4 (316) as it is more resilient toward
stress crack corrosion, but the buying decision is theirs.

Kevin Duncan
UPAT Fischer Regional Manager."

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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby BAbycoat » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:27 am

It was only a matter of time before this thread drifted onto SCC! LOL. I'm going to get in my 2c before the Oracle speaks.

SCC is a peculiar form of failure in stainless steel - very different from bulk corrosion, and very difficult to identify. Most of the scientific research follows catastrophic failure of rooves for indoor swimming pools.

Factors affecting SCC include:
- steel type
- production process (rolled vs turned)
- presence of chlorides
- tension
- temperature
- humidity
- possibly minerals leaching from rocks.

Locations vary from highly succeptible (tropical marine limestone) to almost inert (indoor airconditioned gyms). Note that chlorides blown to inland crags in aerosol forms - this could have been a factor in Montagu.

SS316 (aka A4, Inox) is more resistant to SSC than SS304 (aka A2), but neither offers perfect protection. Duplex 2205 and Titanium are better, but at a much higher price.

I'd guess your Zim crags are going to be warm and dry on inert rock (granite/basalt ... not so sure about the ironstone). Look at bolt performance on comparable crags (Boven/Wellingtons/Harrismith) - 304 expansions seem to be lasting well.

My gut feel is that 304 would be OK in Zim, but 316 is preferable.

All of which is a (very?) long-winded support of Cormac and Andrew's initial advice:

"For dry climate: 10x90mm Fischer FBN or Hilti HSA-R Bolts"
"In zim expansion bolts will last 40 yrs"

some more comments:
- match the steel of your bolts to the steel of your hangars to avoid galvanic corrosion.
- Try not to over-tighten. Most bolts recommend 20-30 lbft. High school physics suggests this is about 15kg on a 20cm spanner, but a torque wrench is more accurate.

There's loads of good information on this site, as well as most major climbign forums, on bolt types and installation.

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DerrickStarling
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby DerrickStarling » Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:24 pm

So i picked up some bolts today from Upat in Jozi, supposedly 316/A4 stainless, the nut and washer say A4 on them but, the stamp on the head is a 'B' and as far as i can tell from the tech spec sheet (which i downloaded of their website) the 10mm 316 bolts have a C, K or, P stamped on them and only the 8mm 316/A4 and the galvanised ones have a B stamped on them.
Anyone out there know what it should be?

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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby Andy Davies » Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:05 pm

Derrick if they have a stamp they should be Fischer - I assume you asked for Fischer? Pop a picture up and we can double check for you.
AndyDavies

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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby XMod » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:47 pm

Why is there so much confusion at UPAT? Ive heard several of these 'wrong spec', 'incorrectly labelled', 'out of stock' BS stories in the last month. Just buy Hilti, their bolts are supplied in a sealed box and I have never heard of the incorrect spec being supplied by them. It seems pointless to keep going back to a supplier when they keep screwing up (sorry UPAT). Maybe its just me but I way prefer dealing with suppliers who are reliable particularly when it comes to equipment upon which peoples lives are going to depend for a long time to come.

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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby Xenomorph » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:08 pm

Hi,
It's a little confusing, you get FBN and FBN II
The above comes in galvanized or A4 (316-Stainless steel)
FBN II is the newer version of the bolt.
The letter on the head designates the anchor length and it differs depending on FBN or FBN II or even the other types of bolts in the Fischer range.

You should have the 'B' designated head= bolt length of 86mm
Get a micrometer/ Vernier and measure it to be sure. I hate to state the obvious but measure the diameter too.

There are 2 additional area's where the bolt has markings/ designations.
a) On the expansion sleeve
b) Just behind the expansion sleeve on the actual bolt (between the sleeve and thread)

To check if you have the right bolt you should have the following on above mentioned area's:
FBN II on area a or b
and 10/10 A4 on area b

Note: the deignation A4 is really NB

I know that I have gone into a fair amount of detail but when you place bolts you become responsible for the lives of those that follow!
Be safe.
Cheers
Cormac

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DerrickStarling
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby DerrickStarling » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:04 am

So my receipt says that they are 10/10 A4 (which is the rite spec for the job) and the areas in question are stamped as so a) FBNII with the little fish symbol and b)10/1C R4 (which looks very similar to 10/10 A4 but on close inspection is not 10/10 A4) also on the spec sheet i downloaded it shows an identification feature, the faceted collar, mine are smooth and round here. The washer and nut both have A 4 stamped on them. I gave them a call yesterday but the guy i delt with has no idea and advised me to come in on Tuesday and see an engineer there.
I appreciate all the detail as I will be putting myself my friends and the public in danger if they are not the rite ones for the job.
Derrick

Xenomorph wrote:Hi,
It's a little confusing, you get FBN and FBN II
The above comes in galvanized or A4 (316-Stainless steel)
FBN II is the newer version of the bolt.
The letter on the head designates the anchor length and it differs depending on FBN or FBN II or even the other types of bolts in the Fischer range.

You should have the 'B' designated head= bolt length of 86mm
Get a micrometer/ Vernier and measure it to be sure. I hate to state the obvious but measure the diameter too.

There are 2 additional area's where the bolt has markings/ designations.
a) On the expansion sleeve
b) Just behind the expansion sleeve on the actual bolt (between the sleeve and thread)

To check if you have the right bolt you should have the following on above mentioned area's:
FBN II on area a or b
and 10/10 A4 on area b

Note: the deignation A4 is really NB

I know that I have gone into a fair amount of detail but when you place bolts you become responsible for the lives of those that follow!
Be safe.
Cheers
Cormac

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Xenomorph
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby Xenomorph » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:05 pm

Tooling is used to stamp 10/10 A4
When the tooling gets blunt or not enough force is applied a O could look like a C and an A could look like a R


DerrickStarling wrote:So my receipt says that they are 10/10 A4 (which is the rite spec for the job) and the areas in question are stamped as so a) FBNII with the little fish symbol and b)10/1C R4 (which looks very similar to 10/10 A4 but on close inspection is not 10/10 A4) also on the spec sheet i downloaded it shows an identification feature, the faceted collar, mine are smooth and round here. The washer and nut both have A 4 stamped on them. I gave them a call yesterday but the guy i delt with has no idea and advised me to come in on Tuesday and see an engineer there.
I appreciate all the detail as I will be putting myself my friends and the public in danger if they are not the rite ones for the job.
Derrick

Xenomorph wrote:Hi,
It's a little confusing, you get FBN and FBN II
The above comes in galvanized or A4 (316-Stainless steel)
FBN II is the newer version of the bolt.
The letter on the head designates the anchor length and it differs depending on FBN or FBN II or even the other types of bolts in the Fischer range.

You should have the 'B' designated head= bolt length of
Get a micrometer/ Vernier and measure it to be sure. I hate to state the obvious but measure the diameter too.

There are 2 additional area's where the bolt has markings/ designations.
a) On the expansion sleeve
b) Just behind the expansion sleeve on the actual bolt (between the sleeve and thread)

To check if you have the right bolt you should have the following on above mentioned area's:
FBN II on area a or b
and 10/10 A4 on area b

Note: the deignation A4 is really NB

I know that I have gone into a fair amount of detail but when you place bolts you become responsible for the lives of those that follow!
Be safe.
Cheers
Cormac

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XMod
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby XMod » Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:19 pm

For visual reference:
Image

https://www.hilti.co.za/anchor-systems/ ... rs/2004202

Image

http://www.upat.co.za/products/anchorin ... olt-fbn-ii

Only use these two bolts or glue in anchor if qualified to place them (ARF).

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Xenomorph
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby Xenomorph » Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:49 pm

Regarding the Fischer bolt, It comes in 3 materials, Please use the A4=316 Stainless Steel.

Please see: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E00 ... sp=sharing

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DerrickStarling
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby DerrickStarling » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:24 am

So after all the confusion I went into Upat and spoke to the head engineer, appears they were the rite ones the whole time, they are A4/316 stainless (and I have the matching stainless hangers). I thought about the galvanized ones as it is very dry up here but they are not the same strength, would have had to go for 12mm or larger in galv.
Will post the new routes soon, hopefully the will be up by the end of the week and we can start climbing them

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DerrickStarling
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby DerrickStarling » Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:33 am

Xenomorph wrote:Regarding the Fischer bolt, It comes in 3 materials, Please use the A4=316 Stainless Steel.

Please see: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E00 ... sp=sharing

Where can I find that full document? Would be good the get this kind of guidence in place here before someone bolts a route with hardware store bought bolts :?

climb555
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Re: Expansion bolts available on the south african market???

Postby climb555 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:22 pm

Hi Derrick,
I read all the comments here about the bolts. Interesting.
did a lot of bolting in Europe and some also here in the Cape.
did you get now your stuff? are you still in the beautiful Zimbabwe? and where are your routes? maybe will come back once to this place because I love Africa.
I am from Austria and often visiting the South here and climbing.
if you find the time to writ me a short notice climb555@hotmail.com
Kind regards Josef
PS: if you ever come to Austria please let me know - there are 2200 routes in my area the WACHAU in Lower Austria


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