Fig8 vs Bowline

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Knot of choice

Figure 8 - sport
28
35%
Bowline - sport
5
6%
Double Bowline - sport
10
13%
Granny - sport
0
No votes
Figure 8 - trad
32
41%
Bowline - trad
1
1%
Double Bowline - trad
3
4%
Granny - trad
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 79

marakasmalan
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Re: Bowline or Fig 8

Postby marakasmalan » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:02 am

Thanks for the detailed discussions and opinions on knots.

My two pence on the matter: the reason for using either the bowline or the figure 8 knot, is a rope in tension will always break at a knot. Knots significantly reduces the breaking strength of a rope. The Bowline and the figure 8 knot are the only two knots (that is practical for climbing) that maintain 0.8 (or 80% if you like) of the rope strength, other knots bring with a much greater reduction in breaking strength.

So, technically they are equally good, it is simply a matter of personal preferance.

A good knot is one that does not let any light through, someone once told me..

Have a nice day everybody!

ColinCrab
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Re: Bowline or Fig 8

Postby ColinCrab » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:12 am

French knot:

1. its small ... you can hold it in a closed fist
2. Safe as any other knot
3. loose end faces back towards you so can be tucked down the front harness loops
4. When tied close you can jack yourself up real close to the draw when working those hard moves out
5. After a monster lob does not jam up and is easily undone even with a major pump on board

Yawn !

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Hann
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Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Hann » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:02 am

It seems knots are in the news.

What do you climb with?

What are your thoughts on "Figure8" vs "Single Bowline" vs "Double Bowline" vs "Granny Knot"

And "Fishermans Stopknot" vs "Jacks Variation Stopknot"

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Thermophage
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Thermophage » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:12 am

Is that double bowline the same as the Yosemite Bowline? :)
Although I must say I think I am going to revert back to the Fig 8...Much easier to tie in difficult situations and harder to bugger up.

shorti
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby shorti » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:42 am

Cuan, it's not the same. The Yosemite will count as single bowline. The double bowline basically starts with 2 loops instead of 1. I don't really see why you'd want to do that.

Granny knot? Are you serious? :cyclops: Did you mean overhand. I'm not sure it's a good idea though...

I use a double (triple for slippery ropes) fisherman stopknot on the loop when I use a bowline. For Fig 8 I tuck the end back through the knot similar to the Yosemite bowline - I guess that makes it a Yosemite 8 :mrgreen:

What is "Jacks Variation Stopknot"?

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Thermophage
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Thermophage » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:48 am

Hi Shorti,

Yeah, see that now. I don't get the point of the double. But the Yosemite is really nice.
I'm relatively new to all this (1.5 years climbing), but in my limited exp...I wouldn't trust a standard bowline...

Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Nic Le Maitre » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:08 am

Hi

I'm sold on the Fig-8 (tied with a bit of a tail) for both sport and trad. It is slower to tie than a bowline but is easier to teach and check. You don't actually need to tie the tail of the Fig-8 off with a stopper knot, the reason that it is taught that way is to make it clear that you need to tie it with a tail. A bowline does however need a stopper knot. In fact if you stuff up the bowline, the stopper knot could save your life.
Happy climbing
Nic

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Faffy001
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Faffy001 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:13 am

ja whatever Cuan, you might be a newbie but you sit on climbing sights all day!! :p
I think the figure 8 is fab for me because...if I fall and it gets really tight...that makes me feel safer than having a loose knot to undo afterward...but that's just the view from a hobbit newbie sport climber :mrgreen:

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Faffy001
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Faffy001 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:14 am

I mean "sites" darn it my language :drunken:

Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Nic Le Maitre » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:14 am

shorti wrote:Cuan, it's not the same. The Yosemite will count as single bowline. The double bowline basically starts with 2 loops instead of 1. I don't really see why you'd want to do that.


The double bowline is like the Figure 9 knot (Figure 8 with an extra turn) in that it is easier to undo once it has been loaded/fallen on
Happy climbing
Nic

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Justin
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Justin » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:33 am

The Bowline (to me ) is a slightly more technical knot and if you get it wrong you're in trouble, the Fig of 8 is more forgiving if you mess it up - chances are it will hold anyway.

I use:
Yosemite Bowline on sport routes for easy untie'ing
Fig of 8 for trad (because Bowlines have been known to work loose over time).

A standard bowline will come undone less easier than a Double or Yosemite Bowline, tying the tale off is always recommend (not always done).

When threading through the anchors on sport routes: I thread, then tie a double Fig of 8 (on a bight) and clip in using an autolock biner – makes things quick, easy and simple.

fyi: The Granny/Overhand/Tape knot is also known as the Euro Death Knot
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Marshall1
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Marshall1 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:48 am

Fig 8 is easy to check. Everyone knows it = everyone can check it.

Bowline much fewer people can check it = you're on your own = bit silly, but keep thinking you are cleverer than everyone else.

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Hann
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Hann » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:07 pm

Ai Marshall, ai.
Ons ou staatmaker.

After our conversation at Oudshoorn about Jack Parrow I figured you would have mellowed out a bit. :mrgreen:

Anyhow......

Photos of
1) Fig8 with Fishermans.
2) Fig8 with Jack's variation.
3) Bowline with Fishermans.
4) Bowline with Jack's

All the accidents with Bowlines. Is there any record of a Bowline failing if tied with a stop-knot?
I'm willing to wager that a Bowline + stop-knot is as safe as a Fig8

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Hann
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Hann » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:09 pm

Justin.
Should one be able to upload photos from iPad?

Photos to follow........

jimbo
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby jimbo » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:16 pm

I use the reverse granny for trad and sport. in other words the same knot you would use for joining tape slings together. its quick, neat, tight, easy to untie and wont work itself loose. if you take a big fall on an 8 it takes for ever to undo and bow lines look to loose for my liking.

Jimbo

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Hann
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Hann » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:27 pm

Knots
Attachments
Fig8 - Fisherman.JPG
Fig8 + Fishermans
Fig8 - Fisherman.JPG (185.57 KiB) Viewed 2732 times
Fig8 - Jacks.JPG
Fig8 + Jacks
Fig8 - Jacks.JPG (192.33 KiB) Viewed 2732 times
Bowline - Fisherman.JPG
Bowline + Fishermans
Bowline - Fisherman.JPG (188.01 KiB) Viewed 2732 times

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Hann
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Hann » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:28 pm

One more Knot
Attachments
Bowline - Jacks.JPG
Bowline + Jacks
Bowline - Jacks.JPG (171.72 KiB) Viewed 2732 times

Marshall1
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Marshall1 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:34 pm

jy maak n bowline
ek smaak n fig8

jy dink jy is kooler as ekker

Jack Parrow was the bomb!

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Hann
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Hann » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:03 pm

Marshall1 wrote:jy dink jy is kooler as ekker


Damn right! :mrgreen:

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Justin
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Justin » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:22 pm

Climb ZA - Administrator
justin@climbing.co.za

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Thermophage
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Thermophage » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:26 pm

that's the one, although we add a 6'th step in taking the tag end and sticking it back down through those two bottom turns as well. Cinches up nicely then.

Franz
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Franz » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:29 pm

personally i stick to the fig8 + dblfishermans stopper, but when I project something on sport and know I will fall a lot then I do the double bowline with a stopper (spending time to make sure the knot is made proper.

from some industrial rope rescue training I had many moons ago I remember that:
fig8 reduces rope strength to +-80%
and normal bowline to +-60%
(i know this is subjective stuff, but it's an indication)

both still have plenty space left to fall on. just make sure you know the know you use, how to do it right, and its limitations.

Peace and love
:afro:

BAbycoat
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby BAbycoat » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:16 pm

Bowline re-thread for lead, Fig-8 on toprope and when cleaning routes.

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Funguye
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Funguye » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:04 pm

Being used to a bowline for sea rescues for years, I am very familiar with the bowline and it is something I can do with one hand and I am thinking you don't have to do it before you thread it like the fig 8. Might be fun to use when cleaning if you use the yosemite bowline? Have never considered using it for climbing funny enough, been taught to use the fig 8 with fishermans. I am curious about the yosemite, but am nervous curiosity may kill the cat.

Interesting to see what the elders have to say ;) so go ahead. Too new at climbing to vote yet
Strangers have the best candy!

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dirktalma
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby dirktalma » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:28 pm

Here is a document describing some tests on some of these knots. Its not very forensic and thorough, but it's interesting. On a 10.5 dynamic rope the figure 8 failed at 70% of the rope breaking strength and the bowline at 63%. Link: http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/03_Cordage_Institute_Tests.pdf

I use the method described by Cuan for the Bowline with Yosemite backup where you send the end through the lower loop again. With this method it's almost impossible to untie it by accident. I use it for trad and sport. This backup makes it fool proof. It also increases the radius of the first bend which theoretically increases the knot strength.

I use Jack's variation on the Figure 8 when using a oldish and hardened static rope that tightens easily. For instance when belaying people at the Exploratio climbing wall when newbs (like me) hang on it forever. I however do not pull the dead end all the way through. With this method, you can just pull the loop out and you have some slack. Even if the loop pulls out while climbing, it doesn't undo the knot.

Here is a picture of the bowline I use:
Image

Here is a pic of the Figure 8 variation I use:
Image

"That's all I have to say about that"
Last edited by dirktalma on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Franz
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Franz » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:32 pm

hey funguye,
I would not consider myself an elder, but i know where you are coming from with the ocean and the bowline.
In (and on) the water its the knot of choice:
- its super fast to make
- its strong
- you can make it with one hand while keeping your head above water with the other.
- it difficult to make
- you dont fall 30m if the knot comes loose (except during an airlift, and then you hopefully fall into water)

the fig8:
- takes time
- it a real pain to undo after a couple of falls
- and its bomber.

Now ask yourself:
- in how much of a hurry am I to tie in before a climb?
- do you trust myself enough (be careful for deceptive ego) to tie in without supervision / another climber checking you?
- do you intend to project routes and take repetative falls in one go that can tighten up a knot?

Then choose.

I like an approach where I reduce my risk and increase my chances of coming back again, and again.
but then, not everyone feels the same way :jocolor:

double bowline + stopper for me when I intend to project (taking time to dress it proper)
all other scenarios fig8 + stopper.
but who knows, maybe things change in the future...

I think full score is to build a personal relationship with whatever knot you use, being familiar with its pros and cons, and then applying a little bit of risk management.

peace and love

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Funguye
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Funguye » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:33 pm

@Franz, very valid points. I do trust myself with the bowline, the rabbit and I are one, however, I totally get the point of someone else checking it and the chance of a mistake always exist. To answer on the other points:

- I prefer to develop a personal relationship with ANYTHING really except the ground. Rapid deceleration syndrome is not really for me.
- I was thinking of using the yosemite when cleaning, to avoid the fig 8 and delay in threading. And simply cuz it is quicker to make, and even that was just a consideration based on what I've read here today. I am very risk averse, so I would need 20 elders to confirm first.

But as I said, I am still newish and I would rather let the others discuss so I can learn, rather to digress. Thanks for your response though, some food for thought....
Strangers have the best candy!

Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Nic Le Maitre » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:11 pm

Knot to use when cleaning (I know this has been mentioned somewhere before, probably in this thread but it bears mentioning again): Many routes (thanks to ARF) have large rings at the top. When you get there, clip into both bolts with slings/draws/cowstail. Then pull up a bight of rope, push it through (both) the rings and tie a Fig-8 on the bight. Clip this to your harness using a screwgate. Untie the rethreaded Fig-8/bowline from your harness and voila you are now able to be lowered to clean without ever having untied from the rope.
Happy climbing
Nic

shorti
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby shorti » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:34 pm

The way I see it, there's 2 things that can go wrong with the bowline. Both when the knot is loose. First the obvious one is the end of the rope simply pulls out. The other one is hard to explain so I'll use the rabbit, hole and tree story. If it is loose enough, you can basically pull the tree through the hole and then you're buggered. This is obviously kinda hard to do if the tree is stiff (when you weight the rope) and therefore very unlikely to happen in my mind.

The various stopper knots makes it hard to do even if there's no tension on the rope.
The Yosemite works just fine. I found it pretty much impossible to fail it even with a loose knot with no tension (basically trying to pull it through with my fingers).
I could still manage to pull the tree through the hole with a rethreaded bowline, but it was much harder and it doesn't look like it will fail instantly like the single bowline in any case. No chance for the tail pulling through the knot.

So the Yosemite looks best to me, as it is easiest to tie and prevents both potential failures the best. Just using the plain bowline is asking for trouble.

Disclaimer: This isn't very scientific, it's just from a discussion (with rope handy to test) with my dad who's got quite a knack for knots.

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Funguye
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Re: Fig8 vs Bowline

Postby Funguye » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:43 pm

Nic, that sounds interesting, I am liking that way. By screwgate I assume you mean locking bina right?
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