Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

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Franz
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Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Franz » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:17 am

My good friend Mo found this extensive doc (see link) about bolting and anchors. This is the closest I have yet seen to a comprehensive bolting manual. I am impressed with the comprehensiveness and scientific approach of the author.

My request:
i. Peer review. For those in the know, do you agree with the statements in the doc?
ii. Request for more docs - do you know of similar documentation of official nature that can be looked at when researching bolting practices?

Humble request: Lets keep to the point on this post :thumleft:

http://www.bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm

PS: be careful, this is a lengthy doc. Please read the thing before commenting.

BAbycoat
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby BAbycoat » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:03 pm

do you want a scientific comparison of bolting methods, or an instruction manual on how-to-bolt?

Franz
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Franz » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:49 pm

I'm trying to take the guesswork out of bolting while trying to avoid the word-of mouth approach.
The doc in the link has a scientific approach, which I like. It gives me a tool to use for selection of method and materials, based on the location (rock type & quality).

To answer your question, I think I am looking for both.

As per my original request: I am hoping some of our tech gurus can read the doc in the link and give an opinion on the content.

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danglingdingle
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby danglingdingle » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:11 pm

Jeez that link is detailed,

I was very interested to see that the brushing and blowing of the holes makes such a big differance.

Doesn't really seem like you need any more than that web site.

seriously though, it's probably a good idea to get hold of the ARF.

http://www.climb.co.za/anchor-replacement-fund/

they'll tell you every thing you need to know.

Andy Davies
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Andy Davies » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:16 pm

Franz I suggest you keep it simple as follows:

1] Use proven existing technology - ie 10x90mm Fischer FBN or Hilti HSA-R anchors with commercially available hangers. (These are good quality stainless steel anchors)
2] Place bolts in solid rock
3] Place bolts to alow for easy clipping, no ankle breaking and to reduce rope drag. Top rope the route and chalk dot the best bolt positions.

PS word of mouth is good - a book can only teach you so much.

Good luck
AndyDavies

Franz
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Franz » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:29 pm

Big thanks to danglingdingle & Andy!

I'm not dissing word of mouth, there is a lot of value in learning from the experience of others (and in so doing not repeating mistakes). As an engineer I am however very interested in the science behind what makes an anchor stick, etc.

Franz
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Franz » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:35 am

I also found this valuable local info
http://www.saclimb.co.za/bolting.html

Thanks J

paddy
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby paddy » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:25 pm

My two cents worth

Invest in quality lower offs
Invest in a torque wrench
Chase quality
Respect existing routes (will your wonder line compromise an existing route)
Ignore those f***ers who backseat drive your efforts and have never tried to open a route

Franz
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Franz » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:49 am

Thanks Paddy. Valuable advice.
I would also like to add three words:
i. permission
ii. Permission
iii. PERMISSION :afro:

I still welcome technically minded responses to the post from anyone.

BAbycoat
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby BAbycoat » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:51 am

IMHO bolting is similar to trad - best learnt through apprenticeship.

Franz
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Franz » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:56 pm

Thank you BAbycoat. There is a lot of value and merit in apprenticeship.

However, I started the post with the objective of gaining responses on the theory of bolting, and to hopefully get a peer review on the accuracy / validity of the original link I posted.

Maybe later I will create a new thread on the merits and practicality of apprenticeship and how it relates to / interacts with theory.

Without taking away from your post I would appreciate responses aimed at the original request.

Marshall1
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Marshall1 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:22 pm

I read most of it & found it spot-on.

Franz
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Franz » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:29 pm

Thanks! I appreciate the effort 8)

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Justin
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Justin » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:06 am

Here is a link to a bolting document that Derek Marshall created sometime ago.

:arrow: Permanent Protection – Bolting Basic Overview

Big up to Derek for creating this document :thumleft:
Climb ZA - Administrator
justin@climbing.co.za

Franz
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Franz » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:38 am

@Derek Marshall

Thanks for spending the effort on creating the presentation. WOW and RESPECT are two words that come to mind.

1 humble question:
i. Why is it a myth that a 90mm expansion anchor is stronger than a 68mm? I would think that longer and thicker would be equal to stronger?

and one comment (from your doc, and also the others):
U-bolts / staples scare the $h!t out of me after reading the test reports, and the science that goes on in the background.

Marshall1
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Marshall1 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:45 am

90mm & 68mm are both 10mm thick & are rated exacly the same strenght. Its a question of how strong the rock is.

U Bolts in solid rock are ok, but rather use expansion bolts or glue-in P bolts.

Franz
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Franz » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:36 am

Its a question of how strong the rock is.


Thanks! The basic theory being longer bolts for softer rock..

WarthogARJ
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby WarthogARJ » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:25 am

Not trying to hijack the thread, but this sort of discussion is EXACTLY the reason why what both Derek and Frans have done is good.
And others.
Put a bit of science into things.

It's a good thing to publish the test data as well as the results of testing.
As well as the interpretations.
That way it can be used buy other people in THEIR work.

As far as the effect of longer bolts is concerned, then sure, all else being equal they obviously tend to be stronger, but perhaps not greatly so.
As you increase the bolt length, the axial strength increases, but then starts to level out.
In soft rock you'd do probably better by using a different "glue": on that permeates the rock.
Or perhaps a different type of bolt.

The way I'd look at it is that SHORT bolts could be good in very hard rock (to reduce drilling effort), and STANDARD length bolts used in general.
In SOFT rock you should probably look at other measures, I doubt that a small increase from 68mm to 90mm would be enough.

Alan

Franz
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Franz » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:14 pm

@WarthogARJ
Thanks for the contribution. No hijack.
One small correction, I did not publish my own work, only some stuff I found on the net. Would be wrong for me to take the credit.
:mrgreen:

Marshall1
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Marshall1 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:51 am

Hi Alan, no tests were done, no science intended... just a basic guide line to entertain the folks at MCSA on a Thursday night. They were mighty bored when I was finished.

doing it = >0
doing nothing = 0
theoretical = 0
Thus theoretical = nothing

Franz
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Re: Bolting Bible??? Request for peer review

Postby Franz » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:46 am

just to aviod misunderstanding, the first link in the thread is not my own work, but the work of someone at bolt-products in Germany.


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