DMM vs. Black Diamond.

[Hann]

For all those trad enthusiasts who’s rack consists of both Black Diamond Stoppers and DMM Wallnuts.
Note that there is a crucial symmetry difference between them.

In placing a nut broad side into a crack (parallel to the wall with the wide side making contact) you would place the DMM with the bulge towards the wall and the hollow side towards the climber. In placing the Black Diamond the nut needs to be placed with the bulge towards the climber and the hollow side towards the wall.

If my writing is difficult to understand, compare them by looking at them from the top and try to spot the difference.

I learned this the hard way this weekend, so spread the word, this knowledge may just come in really handy some day.

[Justin]

Black Diamond Stopper:


DMM Wallnut:

[Chalk]

Is there anybody who knows the reason for this - I mean in terms of how the forces react on the different designs? I'm thinking - if you understand that - you could use your equipment beter

[Justin]

Here is a link to the BD site, at the bottom is a downloadable PDF on using stoppers. www.bdel.com/gear/stoppers.php

It starts...
PLACING/USING A NUT
◆ Get proper instruction.
◆ This pamphlet is no substitute for experience
or qualified instruction.

[pierre.joubert]

Oh wow, never seen that before. Good spotting. What happened? Did your nut jump out the crack?

[Hann]

I took a factor 2
Onto a girl
In a hanging stance
at Krakadouw
when my best piece popped, because of the symmetry difference.

I sh!t you not.

She insisted we bail.
I climbed the route the following day though

[zabullet]

Huh? I've read both usage guides.

http://www.dmmclimbing.com/uploads/docu ... 0Mar09.PDF
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/up ... %20WEB.pdf

...and I don't see the reason. If anything from the pictures of the usage for DMM (see attachment) it appears your description of placements isn't correct.

dmm.JPG (3.18 KiB) Viewed 3416 times

You may well be right, but you haven't explained WHY.

when my best piece popped, because of the symmetry difference

You sure it wasn't just a kak placement....he he he j/k. Glad you are ok. .

zb.

[lelikegogga]

Luckily my nut placements are so 'good', they fall out before I fall off.

[Hann]

Sigh,

Get hold of a Black Diamond Stopper and DMM Wallnut.
The real thing, not a drawing.

Hold the cable pointing to the ground and look from the top.

You will notice both have a boep-pens.
Now hold both boep-pens away from you.

Look at the sides 90° to the boep-pens.

You will notice the DMM gets WIDER to the boep-pens.
You will notice the BD gets NARROWER towards the boep-pens.

In the words of the great Satchmo "If you have to ask, you'll never know"

[zabullet]

Sigh,

I know. Us n00bs aren't worthy!

You will notice the DMM gets WIDER to the boep-pens.

You will notice the BD gets NARROWER towards the boep-pens.

So explain why it must *always* go in, in the manner you are talking about? Surely it depends on what direction the crack is flaring?

zb.

[xuri_inti]

This issue is very interesting. Thanks for bringing it up. I have read both manuals, I have seen both types of stoppers, and I think the way you place them has to do more with the shape of the crack than with the shape of the device...maybe someone can explain me why I'm wrong...

Buenas escaladas

[mokganjetsi]

yebo, it all seems overcomplicated - just check the shape of the crack; the shape of your nut; place accordingly. give a few good tugs to ensure it sits properly. go for it!

[GBM]

I agree with ZAbullet on this, Hann you need to elaborate some more ... what piece did you place (that you say was your best piece) and on what basis can you say that if you had placed the other stopper it would not have popped ... sorry the only thing that appears certain from your post is the slight difference in design of the pieces. Having said that there is no compelling evidence to suggest one would have done the job better then the other or that your initial placement or even the rock was not the cause of the problem.

[Hann]

I'm not prescribing how to place a nut.

I'm trying to inform all that gear are not the same.

As xuri_inti notes: Every placement is a combination of the rock, the gear and the interaction between the two.

Allow me explain, as I see we have slower ones with us today...
(just pulling your wire zb )

If you've been climbing exclusively on DMM walnuts, and somebody hands you a couple of BD stoppers to add to your rack. Don't assume that you can place the BD's in the same way as the DMM.

In essence, know the gear you are climbing with well.

This goes for cams too.
A BD cam you could grab by the stem and 'walk' it in a little further.
- Think standing on tiptoe with the placement just-just with reach.
You cannot do this with a Trango Maxcam, as the a-symmetry will cause it to topple over and fail.

In essence, know your gear, and your climbing partners gear, and sommer alles on the market very well.

[Heinrich]

If it's really that big of an issue, then climb with one brand of nuts only. And If you're me, that brand is DMM.

Don't EVER rely on habit, habits get you killed...

[tygereye]

No matter what kind of nut you use, I find that the best way is to place it such that there is as much contact to the rock as possible. Give it a healthy tug to secure, also in your anticipated direction of travel, to make sure it sits snugly and won't pull out when you climb further.