Starting A Trad Rack

Post here for all your gear questions, rants and raves. Ask about gear before you buy it and find out what others are using. NOTE: this forum is NOT for gear sales.

Andy
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Starting A Trad Rack

Postby Andy » Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:19 am

How do you go about starting a Trad Rack?
if your not living on the Edge...
... YOUR TAKING UP TOO MUCH SPACE!

mokganjetsi
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby mokganjetsi » Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:29 am

buy trad gear.... :)

its a financial issue and its really upside down: beginners probably nead more gear to make more placements & learn how to use pieces correctly & efficiently. good idea to "team-up" with a climbing buddy and build a rack together - say one guy buys a few cams and the other a set of nuts & slings. you can split the gear later if you each want to build a rack.

nuts gives you most "bang for your buck" - you can buy them from around R60 a piece; R600's nuts equals ten placements whereas a single cam goes for approx the same. and a bomber nut placement is better than any cam placement.

there are web specials from time to time on buying a set of gear - discounts and saves on shipping. or go bargain with a south african retailer.

iank
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby iank » Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:48 am

Hi
Save some money first, personally if you have the money then this is what you get, you will eventually end up buying an uber rack anyhow, so you might as well get it from the start.

Full set of Black Diamond cams(don't worry about the C3's, over priced in my opinion)
Full set of Aliens. This will overlap a lot with the Black Diamond cams but that's ok :-), you dont have to drag all of them up a route, but once you start doing longer routes then they are handy to have).

Double set of DMM or Wild Country nuts
Single set of Black Diamond micros.

Bluewater 8.6 mm ropes. 60 M * 2

Wild Country helium quick draws. * 12
Slings 60 cm * 5 with helium gates
Slings 120 cm * 2 with helium gates

Nut pick

This will set you back somewhere between 20 - 30 grand depending on where you shop, you are unlikely to get all of this in any one shop in SA.

If you don't have that much cash:

Single set of DDM or Wild Country nuts
Black Diamond Cams from size .5 to 3.5
Slings * 5
Quickdraws * 12 (use your sport draws, they will work fine)
nut pick

If you are really broke
All gear is bomb proof, some are just easier to place, handle, remove, and of course lighter.
Single set of nuts (look for cheapest on market),
Rack of hexes
Some medium sized cams about 3 should do.
Current quick draws
Slings

Cheaper ropes or only one half rope and use your sport rope as the other(learn how to tie a double fisherman's to join ropes of different diameters and read up on the different characteristics of the ropes)

cheers
Ian

pierre.joubert
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby pierre.joubert » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:22 am

Some of these:
Image
and grab these:
Image
set of these:
Image
bunch of these:
Image
lots of these: (colour coded to match your cams :thumright)
Image
one of these: (or learn to use the rope to build an anchor)
Image

Couple of lockers, couple of sport draws, nut pick.

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Hann
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby Hann » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:29 am

Nuts:
Take great care to spot the difference between BD and DMM nuts.
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=632

Ropes:
@ Ian.
What advantage would you have with 60m ropes?
In my experience you can rap down almost any of the standard anchors in 50m.
Actually, I'm yet to come across the rap station that requires 60m.

Draws:
12?
Wow.
That is a lot in my opinion, naturally, opinion only.

NB
Self Rescue Gear:
2 x Prussic. (or, substitute 1 prussic for a rope-man or similar)
1 x Screwgate.
1 x 60 cm sling.
And learn how to use it.

mokganjetsi
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby mokganjetsi » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:33 am

R20k to R30k is steep for a beginner.....
check this out:
http://www.acmeclimbing.com/index.asp?C ... n=VIEWCATS

i share the sentiment of buying functional, quality gear from the start - your life depends on it and will keep you from double spending if you're not happy with what you have. avoid paying exponentially increasing prices for little added benefit though; rated & certified products are fully functional; not a great deal of difference between pro, especially passive gear (nuts & hexes)

you can climb trad on sport ropes if the max impact force isn't too high; they're just heavy and ungainly on the half rope system. if you're serious go invest in proper half ropes.

and slings, oh yes, lots of slings.

Wayne73
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby Wayne73 » Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:45 am

If price is a deciding factor how do rock empire cams stack up?
Fat men are harder to kidnap

iank
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Location: Joburg

Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby iank » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:01 pm

You can manage fine with 50 m ropes, but you would be surprised how many extra stances you avoid by having that extra 10 m, but like I said, that is my ideal rack. If you really want to screw the cat then 70 M is the business. We did a 11 pitch route on Spitzkoppe in 6 pitches. 12 draws is what I find works for me, especially if you string pitches together, and I hate rope drag and have a eternal fear of gear lifting out, so I extend most placements, hence the higher number of draws, but you can probably manage with less.

shorti
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby shorti » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:46 pm

If I had to buy a rack now, I'd probably go for the new Dragon cams and the new Metolius master cams for smaller sizes. Rock Empire ain't bad, but Camelots and Friends are better. They all work.

For a beginner rack I'd get nuts first (at least 10) and then hexes. Don't bother with Peanuts (or micro nuts) and also don't bother with the really big nuts (Wild Country #11 and bigger), they are almost useless. Get Hexes, they are a must, I don't get why some people don't like them. In my experience #5 - #8 are the most useful. Get Wild Country hexes, they work the best, I don't like wired hexes, they are nothing more than big nuts. If you have enough money for cams, get medium ones first (20mm - 60mm), they are used most and are the easiest to place (less prone to walking).

Get a nutpick, they are cheap, so get one for all your friends. Or otherwise you can just tell me where you climbed and I'll go "shopping". :)

Get enough racking biners, one for each cam, and one for your hexes and two for nuts (1 for small ones and one for the bigger ones). A few small locking biners can be useful, I have 6 and they are plenty enough. One large locking biner can also be useful at stances (apart from the one for your belay device). I rarely take more than 10 draws on a climb, but I like ones with long dyneema slings. 4 of my draws have 60cm slings, they work fantastic (planet fear had an article about building the ultimate trad quickdraw, go look for it, it's awesome). It's a good idea to get a few slings. The cheapest is to buy a buy tape and make your own slings at the lengths you want. I have 3 X 60cm and 3 X 120cm slings, but rarely take them all with me. I use them most often to sling trees, chock stones or chicken heads, but they are also useful as runners for cam placements that I'm afraid might swivel out of a precarious placement. Get at least 1 biner per sling, locking biners are a good idea here.

50m ropes will be fine, but I've climbed to the end of my 60s on a number of occasions, but you are much more likely to find a 10m pitch than a 50m+ pitch and the long ones are always optional. We've climbed a route the other day with a 10m and 5m pitch to start with and a 35m 3rd pitch - needless to say we did it in 2 pitches. Will you get down from Boggle on 50s? I suppose you can always top out.

You will need time to figure out what you want and what you find works best, so try to climb with someone with experience, a mentor is very very valuable and you get the chance to figure out what you like before you spend the money.

mokganjetsi
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby mokganjetsi » Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:00 pm

shorti wrote:You will need time to figure out what you want and what you find works best, so try to climb with someone with experience, a mentor is very very valuable and you get the chance to figure out what you like before you spend the money.


probably the best bit of advice on this entire thread..... :thumright

pierre.joubert
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby pierre.joubert » Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:08 pm

Wayne73 wrote:If price is a deciding factor how do rock empire cams stack up?


If price is a deciding factor, find a way to buy your trad rack in the US. It sucks having to spend $$ twice to have gear that you really want. A trad rack is kindof more involved than buying a set of draws... I've never ever, even almost, thought for one single second (get the point?) that I should've bought a cheaper rack. I have however, been damn glad I bought the best I could possilby afford when run out 5m above the last gear...

Further, what shorti said ^^^


moks wrote:probably the best bit of advice on this entire thread..... :thumright
well, beside the old interweb one "don't believe anything you read, and only half of what you see" - especially when swedish swimwear models are involved :)

Ray
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby Ray » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:00 pm

If you are like me are unkeen to fork out R20k-R30k, then look out for good deals! I started a rack late last year, after having a basic sport rack.

I bought 9 cams and 9 nuts for R4000 ish (second hand but never used)- all rock empire, and I have climbed now with a few others makes, and I must say I am very happy with rock empire - they are solid, I would not pay the extra in a hurry as a beginner traddie anyway.

I then bought a 9mm rope for around R1500 I think.

I then bought a few hexes - 5 in all of variying sizes, and I agree - a well placed hex is probably the key to confidence in a difficult move! They set me back about R600.

I climb at the moment with the 9mm rope and a thicker sport rope - a bit of a drag but fine for starting out. I am going to purchase a second trad rope soon.

Then I bought 6 dyneema slings to make my sport draws extendable - this is really useful. I usually climb with about 10-12 draws, of which 6 are extendable. The slings were about R400? Thus I just adapted my sport draws.

So the total cost so far (over an above my sport rack) is R6500, as far as I can remember. I am building it as I go - but if you already have a sport rack, you can get away with a reasonable amount - just watch out for deals.

Heinrich
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby Heinrich » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:55 pm

Buy the best you can afford, and if you can't afford it, save up a little bit more...

Get 60m ropes... you'll never look back, and yes: that extra 10m is key. Shorti: can't abseil down with 50's on boggle, my 60's just made it to the ground.

best nuts imo: Wild Country wallnuts.
best hexes: Rockcentrics
best ropes: Edelrid Merlin 8mm half ropes. It's the shizlies.

GBM
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby GBM » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:09 pm

Go do some climbing with someone who has a decent trad rack, you will soon get an idea of whats used regularly and what would make for the beginnings of a decent set of gear. Buying the whole lot in one go is premature in my view, if you are beginning you are not going to go and do some 8 pitch epic that will require that variety. Buy the helmet first!

pierre.joubert
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby pierre.joubert » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:50 pm

Hey Heinrich, multiple personalty much?

Heinrich wrote:If it's really that big of an issue, then climb with one brand of nuts only. And If you're me, that brand is DMM.


Heinrich wrote:best nuts imo: Wild Country wallnuts.


I know, a typo. You mean DMM. :P

Heinrich
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby Heinrich » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:22 pm

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:



:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:


i'm not worthy of my nuts

mokganjetsi
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby mokganjetsi » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:36 am

pierre.joubert wrote:especially when swedish swimwear models are involved


where? where? :mrgreen: :alien:

btw shorti, since you cannot keep the success of your devious ways to yourself, be sure that a meter of penalty slack will be standard with each belay from now on.....

ps: stellenbosch se nonnatjies makes swedish swimwear models soooooo last year :thumright

psps: which are the best shoes: la sportiva, evolv, fiveten or madrock? which are best nuts: dmm, metolius, black diamond or wild country? big deal i say - no major difference in design, no major difference in function. something like the WC hexentrics with slings as opposed to wire stems definitely makes a difference. ask shorti about his beloved cowbells

shorti
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby shorti » Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:52 pm

Dear General Field Marshall, Conqueror of Bitten, King of Sotland, His Excellency Mokganjetsi Da da da

I have a sneaky suspicion that the 1m penalty slack has been standard practice for a long time now, but it does not bug me, since I gave up on the whole falling off idea anyway (it's way overrated and kinda hurts). Beside, giving only me penalty slack is just blantantly racist! :afro: If it makes you feel better, when I heard my flat mate get up on Monday morning I got up too to go grind some coffee beans, but the bloody cretin heard me and waited outside my bedroom door with a friggen sword and grabbed me and yelled something stupid (or maybe it was me yelling)! Not sure how my sphincter held, but I'm glad it did. At least we got a good ab workout. Best pranks are saved for best friends, it's way more funny that way :mrgreen:

Anyway, Heinrich you should eat more so you can stretch those ropes a little, my 60s made it with plenty to spare, giving me the idea that it might be possible with 50s. I don't think it was on Boggle, but it might as well have been, but someone told me once they were still a couple of meters off the deck when the rope's end was met. They had to drop the last bit and the last guy had to grab one rope when he sailed off the rope so it won't shoot up out of reach!

GBM's got the best point of all, I kinda forgot about it, but if it wasn't for a helmet, I would probably have been dead and I would not be the only one.

JonoJ
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby JonoJ » Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:58 pm

mokganjetsi wrote:
ps: stellenbosch se nonnatjies makes swedish swimwear models soooooo last year :thumright


Sorry but, Yo-lan-di Vi$$er from Die Antwoord p#*$klaps them all!

On a serious note though. Good observations from Hann. Thanks..... most constructive advice in the forum for a long time!

Lekker.

Well, the weekend's almost here..... hope y'all get out and climb like flippin' ninjas!

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Hann
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby Hann » Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:21 pm

For those who are not familiar with contemporary South African music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc3f4xU_FfQ

Wayne73
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby Wayne73 » Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:33 pm

Sorry but, Yo-lan-di Vi$$er from Die Antwoord p#*$klaps them all!

Sorry Jono you are wrong.

Helmets best idea ever.

Shorti seeing as you are already enjoying the benefit of the penalty slack, give us the full Swedish model story.
Fat men are harder to kidnap

Heinrich
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby Heinrich » Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:34 pm

Shorti's like the hottest swedish babe EVER! those curly chest hairs drive me NUTS! DMM NUTS!!

mokganjetsi
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby mokganjetsi » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:03 am

Heinrich wrote:those curly chest hairs drive me NUTS!


well, its really the curly hair on his back that gets me sweating..... in horror :mrgreen:

shorti cannot let the swedish swimwear model out of the bag - there will be quite a few guys on this forum that will be ready to stone him.... but i might publish his guilt to the highest bidder. starting @ 6 amstels :twisted:

pierre.joubert
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby pierre.joubert » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:37 am

I'll do it for 3. Are you BBBBBEEEEEEEEE ceritfied?

Wayne73
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby Wayne73 » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:15 am

Ok Pierre, I'll buy you 3 beers for the story, but you need to be in Cape Town to collect. Unfortunatley not BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBEEEEEEEEEEEEEE certified.

And to make this a non hijack post - anyone got thoughts on attending a trad leader course.
Fat men are harder to kidnap

shorti
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby shorti » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:22 am

Sjees, with enemies like you lot, who needs friends! But I guess as long as none of you dare "touch me on my studio", I should be all right.

Wayne, it seems like I won't be able to tell, but I find it funny that I never mentioned anything about Helene being a swimwear model. My Norwegian friend said, he thinks it's because of movies like Dumb and Dumber that everyone thinks Swedish girls are hot. He also mentioned that Norwegian girls are the real deal when it comes to pretty girls, but personally I'm more into groot ABW griete and not guys, like the 3 lads above :eye:
I think I can just as well say that in the little prank, I played the part of the brain (naturally) and my partner in crime was the muscle :jocolor:

Ok enough Thread jacking! Andy, where are you from? Wanna go climb something some time?

Wayne, ask Gustav next time you go to Boven. Don't know about the Cape, maybe Ross Suter.

shorti
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby shorti » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:48 am

Speaking of BBBBBEEEEEEEEE and all that, at work I'm officially classified as "Mixed race" - I'm dead serious. I argued I'm at least partly Frisian, Gaulish and Saxon. It is also likely that I have Frankish and Celtic ancestry. I also let a "vierrietjies" and "jackalas" slip every now and then to the dismay of my mother, but it doesn't bother me, I like my chinas. Mok also accused me of being Spanish - I swear I have never crapped at the base of a climb. Buenos Dias, ek sê.

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Hann
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby Hann » Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:32 am

Back on Track:

The leader course.

Being of the "Old School" myself I never had the opportunity to attend a climbing course.
Everything I know had to be learned the hard way. Slowly. I'm also convinced that after 13 years of trad I would still benefit greatly from a course.

To anybody interested in climbing I would recommend all the courses.
From the top-rope-belay one at your local gym to the advanced-ice-climbing-aid-solo course I'm sure is somewhere.

I think Ross Suter does one in Cpt, and I'm sure there are others.
You can probably google him.

pierre.joubert
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby pierre.joubert » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:14 pm

Back to the thread jacking
Image

Yeah Andy, where are you? If you're in Joburg, drop me a mail at pierre dot joubert at gmail dot com and we can go climb some stuff, just not this weekend.

If you're in Snor City, speak to shorti, just don't go on a date with him :)

Oh and sorry for inventing the swimwear model bit, that was just my imagination with lots of slack.

Andy
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Re: Starting A Trad Rack

Postby Andy » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:51 pm

Thanks for the advice everyone! :thumright

I am thinking of buying a rack of 10 Black Diamond nuts for R950 for starters.
I can use some gear from a firend as well.

Andy
Last edited by Andy on Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
if your not living on the Edge...
... YOUR TAKING UP TOO MUCH SPACE!


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