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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 12:58 pm 
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I noticed the article about new sport and trad lines, at crags in the US. In the picture attached, the trad line (13d) is the crack to the left of the line the climber is on (14b). Both are beautiful climbs. What a wonderful example of co-existance of these two disciplines of our sport.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 8:07 am 
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Trad and sport can co-exist but it takes a caretaker but it tends to be an uneasy alliance.

Hellfire is just such a crag and will remain so as long as guys like Ross and Greg Hart are vigilant. Boven started off as a trad crag and then the lines were retro-bolted. So yes, they can co-exist but given half a chance, the bolters will want to move in.

I have had to beat off the bolters on more than one occasion on the 3 trad routes at the Dog Bowl in Montague (23,24 and 25). So when I am dead and gone someone will probably bolt them. That's just the way it is.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 10:55 am 
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One can always trad a bolted line....
But I do agree that a trad-able line should not be bolted to begin with.
If there's a worthwhile climbable line next to a trad line, I have no issues with the bolts - just keep the permanent gear off and clear of the trad line.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 11:45 am 
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Location: da Big Red baboon in magalies
Tradding a bolted line makes me think of Zuma taking a shower :puker:

Image

I think the bigger issue for a lot of people (and please do forgive me for the generalisation) is the complaints we see on forums like this one... cigarette buts, dogs, doggie POOPS, littering, wanting to encroach closer and closer to things like black eagle's nest.... need I go on?


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 3:43 pm 
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Tigereye,

I disagree - a trad line that also has bolts, is not really trad climable..confused? Trad climbing is more about a mental state, and when there are bolts next to a trad placement, that mental state is gone, may as well cement the crack up. Pure trad climbs should never be bolted. However, I do agree that a completely untraddable line can be bolted, even if it is next door to a trad climb; I have no issue with that BUT as Snort says the problem is controlling the bolting. Like a pest, unless there is strict control, once there is one bolt, others follow.

The reason I brought this topic up is that I know of one, maybe two incredible lines in Cedarberg in the Magaliesberg that I would love to bolt to make a couple of truly world-class 40-50 m sport routes, real King Lines, but of course some might oppose this in which case I would not pursue as I dont like arguing. There are actually quite a number of existing sport climbs in the kloofs only on the untradable lines, thanks to effective control over the years. I'm just wondering what the opinions are?

Cheers
Andrew


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 4:05 pm 
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Because of the "pressure" of the population in JHB, bolting in Magaliesberg will be unstoppable if you start - even with a "King Line". Also, the implication, generally, is that a "King Line" is also a harder route and that then excludes most people from climbing it.

There will then be 100's of King Lines in Magaliesberg that are easier so who will decide? It will just be a question of time before routes like Crystal Fire then get bolted.

Bad idea to bolt there even more so than the Ledge on TM. TM is trashed and engineered already by tourists and the Cable Car; the Magalies kloofs which I still visit at least twice a year are pristine by comparison. Keep it that way.

There is more than enough routes around SA and the world that lend themselves to bolting. Go do em first.

And yes, I agree that placing a bolt next to a trad placement completely changes the character and the commitment of doing a route. If one does not want to trad it then top rope it - not much different to leading it and clipping bolts.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 4:35 pm 
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Hi Snort, I actually meant only lines that are untraddable, Crystal Fire is already a trad line, I have done it, lovely face climbing I recall. By utraddable I meant totally untraddable, huge sections of absolutely unprotecable rock of which there are very few such lines and would by their very nature be desperate. Actually, there's not that much left up here to bolt, I am running out fast and have almost done all the existing sport routes here and opened many (last count 9 FA's between 30 and 32 in the last year.)....I need a new crag..maybe I need to move to Spain. ??


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 5:00 pm 
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I don't think we can ever run out of Rock to climb in SA on trad or sport. The Ledge on TM has seen about 10 new routes in the last year - all of them very good or at least worth doing.

If it's un-trad-able why not top rope it? Is their really a difference to bolting it to your specifications? (There is definitely a difference to trad climbing it!)

Some proponents of sport climbing claim that it is "freer" than trad climbing - one is less encumbered with a heavy rack, the difficulty of placing the gear etc. So top roping it would be freer still and akin to bouldering as you do not momentarily have to take a hand off to place the quick-draw and clip the rope which can also be heavy?


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 5:34 pm 
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I would not prefer top roping a sport climb for exactly the same reasons you would not top rope a trad climb, its not really climbing, it feels totally lame, and toproping a 40 metre overganging wall is almost impossible. I am just looking for advice; really, I am running out of rock, I am afraid it is possible here in SA; there are only a handful of sport climbing areas and most of those are not steep enough for hard lines. The fact that there are amazing king lines in the kloofs that will never be climbed is tough to live with. I think the lines in there could be the best in the country, if Wig wam is anything to go by. Maybe the Cape is calling, but even there I dont see huge potential for hard stuff? A couple of lines at Montagu and maybe Oudtshoorn, where else..? Suggestions would be welcome. Thanks, Andrew


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 5:38 pm 
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You'll find all those styles at Hellfire. Not all non tradable lines need bolting. At Hellfire we've opted not to bolt the smaller outcrops (<10m). However we've toproped over thirty longer lines that should definitely get bolted. Plus theres even more scope. The crag will probably hold 200+ trad routes, about 80-100 sport routes and 50-100 toprope/boulder problems when eventually fully explored!
I am now working on a proposal climbing management plan which will hopefully eventually lead to bolting being legally allowed there.

That said, the history of co-existence there is not un marred. Bolts infringe on two trad routes. One trad route was bolted over by a simlarly routed sport line (This occurred when the bolter had no knowledge of the trad route being opened). Prompt communication of FA's amongst climbers is essesntial in avoiding such unfortunate occurences. With correct magagement paralell development of trad and sport can definitely co-exist!


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 6:12 pm 
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Real Name: Mathieu Schneuwly
Nought Snort.
"If one does not want to trad it then top rope it - not much different to leading it and clipping bolts"
Just nought.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 7:11 pm 
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Top roping a trad line is the same as top roping a sport line. Leading a trad line is completely different to leading a sport line.

In order of "lameness:" top-roping anything, bouldering, sport climbing, trad climbing some routes, hi-ball bouldering, trad climbing X rated routes, soloing at or near your technical limit...


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 7:34 pm 
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"Leading a trad line is completely different to leading a sport line."
Indeed, leading sport is better.

Well ive never tradded but sometimes the truth is obvious ;-)

I must be honest that in places where cracks and features are in abundance ( think: yosemite) tradding is the obvious style to use. It would be hugely impractical and wasteful to bolt the whole way up...

In fact i think trad should be reserved for multipitching- there thats my theory!

Tradding a single pitch is stupid, cumbersome and some even rely on bolts to lower off... where is the sense?

Getting back to the topic: All climbs can be bolted, not all climbs can be tradded nor can they all be top-roped(sorry snort) so there is DEFINITELY a place for bolts if the sport is to remain progressive.

I do believe there is a place for tradding though, like those buildings where you can walk around and look at old fighter planes with no ejector seats and racing car drivers with no helmets.

I joke. Tradders must and will remain but they should stop being so anti-bolting.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 7:41 pm 
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Snort, what a dissapointing response, very immature. There is nothing lame about any disciplines of climbing, bouldering V9 is just as impressive as tradding E6 which is just as impressive as redpointing 8b sport or doing 20 pitch 5.10's or soloing E5. You show your lack of experience by making such comments. I on the other hand have done all of the above and love them all, its not about height or balls, its about commitment. I did not want to argue, I just wanted to some good advice.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 7:53 pm 
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Technically speaking: Toproping is the purest and safest form of climbing (all the climber has to do is concentrate on climbing).

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 8:36 pm 
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In the Eastern Cape there is co-existance at every single venue. Bolting trad lines is a waste of bolts. Trad vs sport is a waste of breath; & is ego related...ego is a waste of energy & friends.

Andrew, I rate go for it. Get the land owners permission first.

Its not sport climbers that we have to worry about. Few of them even tighten loose hangers much less bolt. Bolting is progression from discovering & opening trad routes. Its obsesive compulsive developers who are the problem.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 9:23 pm 
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My 2c: To open a route purely to get your name on a RD since you are doing it for the wrong reasons (ego?) and the first ascensionist probably will ignore the local ethics in any case.

I’d like to argue that routes are opened for your own enjoyment as well as those that follows and hence it is not just your own abilities/ethichs/ego/needs that need to be considered in isolation.

If you are opening a route so that others can benefit from it and enjoy the line, it makes sense for me to consider the general ethics of the crag first. Opening a trad route in sports crag and visa versa is lame and shefish since all you are doing is ruining the line for the general climbers that frequent the crag. Boven is a good example: few people go to Boven to climb trad. Insisting that some line you tradded should forever be closed to sports climbers in a crag with 100 sport routes to the left and 100 to right to me is shelfish. Similarly, opening a sports route in a trad crag (e.g. Magaliesberg Kloofs) is also just plain wrong.

There are many exceptions and in mixed use crags I agree with XMod that some kind of management plan is required.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 9:31 am 
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Gadget dude, I disagree. How exactly is
Gadget wrote:
Opening a trad route in sports crag and visa versa is lame and selfish since all you are doing is ruining the line for the general climbers that frequent the crag.
...ruining a line?

How are you ruining the line? Don't you think that rather than "ruining" the line, like you would by bolting it with something that needs to be replaced one day (and all bolts will eventually need to be replaced), you are actually enjoying it while preserving it for future generations to do the same?

Have you seen a route where every new bolt has a chopped (replaced) bolt next to it? Nice hey? How will it look in another 20 years? If you can trad it, then obviously you should? I'm not saying don't bolt, hell I clip a lot of 'em. I'm saying don't bolt a splitter crack just because it's at a sport crag.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 10:20 am 
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Everybody has made interesting, relevant and constructive comments. However there are some comments that need addressing:

M@ you said:
Quote:
Tradding a single pitch is stupid, cumbersome


Probably 90% of the worlds hardest, legendary and best trad lines are single pitch routes esp in the UK. Even in Yosemite, most of the technically demanding and well known routes are single pitch!

Quote:
Getting back to the topic: All climbs can be bolted, not all climbs can be tradded nor can they all be top-roped(sorry snort) so there is DEFINITELY a place for bolts if the sport is to remain progressive.


Trad lines cannot be bolted because if you do you change the character of the route to the extent that it is a different route. Also bolts all too often force the line un-naturally straight so avoiding the natural features.

Gadget: You said
Quote:
Boven is a good example: few people go to Boven to climb trad. Insisting that some line you tradded should forever be closed to sports climbers in a crag with 100 sport routes to the left and 100 to right to me is shelfish.


Boven has devolved or evolved depending on your perspective from being a trad place to totally sport venue with the trad routes retro-bolted. So it is a poor example of what you are saying. The example that is worth mentioning that supports your argument is Oudsthoorn. Trad and Sport could easily have co-existed at Boven as it does at Hellfire and to some extent at Montague.

Justin you said:
Quote:
Technically speaking: Toproping is the purest and safest form of climbing (all the climber has to do is concentrate on climbing).


Exactly my point. If it is too overhanging then a plan can always be made for the odd directional and yes, even bolts can be used where needed.

The vast majority of climbing is done on top rope here and the world. There are more indoor climbers in the US than out-door and indoor climbing lends itself to more frequency. This is reflected at CityROCK too where there are far more top-rope climbers than boulderers or Lead climbers. Wonderwal has only had top-roping in the past.

Andrew p you said:
Quote:
Snort, what a dissapointing response, very immature. There is nothing lame about any disciplines of climbing,


Andrew p you are contradicting yourself. And you call me in-experienced and I make immature comments?

You used the word lame.
Quote:
its not really climbing, it feels totally lame,
. So to you the fact that probably the majority of climbing is done on top rope is not really climbing? But everything else is. In trad climbing the person seconding does it on top-rope more often than not too. Mmmmmmm?

Go to lower Silvermine last week-end and look at the ratio of top-roping to leading. Bronkies? Boven?

And you bandy big numbers around too. You probably are not conceited and arrogant but it sure must sound like it to the majority of people that climb - the base of the pyramid - and will never get past Grade 20 or even 18 or even 16 - on a top rope.

As it is most ascents of even the hardest routes are effectively worked on a top-rope by yarding from one bolt to the next and working the moves.

Doing that on Trad is so much more committing. I remember falling 5 times or more onto a nut 2m down trying to do White Rider - a mere 26, 25 years ago when top roping a route first was taboo. Rarely now would I do that today.

Finally let the reader decide if your or my comments are immature, lame, inexperienced, conceited or arrogant or whatever. You/we do ourselves no credit by casting aspersions on each others opinions.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 10:44 am 
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Jeez reading these forums can become tiresome...

Any simple question gets turned into a mudslinging match and we always end up in the same pointless place.

I fully agree with Andrew p's sentiments who is obviously someone who just enjoys climbing and not lourding it over everyone with his years of experience and inflexible opinions.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 11:01 am 
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Hey, lets not let a constructive debate turn into name calling. Snort, Andrew is one of the most pysched climbers out there. I doubt your statement that "the majority of people that climb - the base of the pyramid - and will never get past Grade 20 or even 18 or even 16 - on a top rope.", but if that were the case and they were trying Andrew would be pysched for them.
Otherwise, interesting debate.
I agree with Andrew's comments, but then as a sport climber it is probably a position I understand better...


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 11:11 am 
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I'm setting the record straight!

Snort & Andrew, stop fighting, we like you both to co-exist as sport guru and trad renegade! And Andrew, pls don't move to Spain myman!

And whoever wants to bolt a trad line/splitter crack at a sportcrag, Boven, Cederberg or even the moon should be sent there, to the moon I mean!

In my humble opinion there's absolutely no reason why trad and sport shouldn't co-exist. Its about respecting every discipline. And you need to have done at least a nice, challenging climb for you in both and those devisions(and bouldering aswell) to at least know how it feels like - I recommend it!

Then give an opinion based on experience. I recommend 'WOW WOW PEDDLE,19/20" on sport and 'ROULETTE,21" on TM to try out and fall in love with.

j


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 11:56 am 
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Just go and do all the types of climbing, they are all rad in their own way, even top-roping! Specialising exclusively in one thing is bound to give you a narrow perspective on the world!

To address some misconceptions expressed here by the more myopic:

Tradding a single pich is by no means cumbersome, it works just as well as sport climbing, its just different thats all.

Toproping can be done on almost anything, even pretty darn steep stuff, provided there are some placements to hold the rope in. Andrew whilst I agree its not the most convenient way to climb steep stuff (getting back on after falling is blerry impossible!) its not impossible. You dont have anything in Boven so steep that this is not a viable way of at least checking out new lines, surely you do this anyway before bolting? Certainly we've climbed dozens of lines that arent tradable by toproping them. The only things too steep to toprope are low caves where you will hit the floor if you fall off!

This idea that wanting to keep a trad line as such, in a predominantly sport area, is selfish is completely twisted. Wanting to bolt it is selfish. Whats going to happen to those bolts in twenty years, fifty, when youre dead and gone? Bolts are a stuff up, period! I love clipping them but they are a big problem in terms of sustainability. Bolts as little as possible, trad as much as possible! Cliffs should not be labelled as 'sport only' or 'trad only' that is selfish. There is room for everything (especially more trad and (YES!) toroping).


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:22 pm 
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I think what needs to be discussed is bolting of lines - i.e. routes not yet opened, that offer no trad line potential - blank faces that can only be protected by bolts.
Is this dependent on the area - like TM/ Monteseel which are sacred or based on who shouts loudest to tell people to refrain from bolting.
My opinion would be that routes that cannot be climbed with trad gear (i.e. no placement potential) should be bolted to further the sport at the top end.
The question is then who decides on the areas/routes that can be bolted - or where trad and sport can coexist?


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 12:56 pm 
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And there I was thinking that climbing was a sport for adults. . . .

This sounds like a bunch of 3 year olds waiting for the nursery school teacher to come along and tell everybody to stop fighting and play nice or you will have to sit in the corner.

Of course Trad and Sport can co-exist, but unfortunately the children wanting play those games can't.

The sooner everybody stops being a "sport climber" or a "Trad climber" or a "Boulderer" and starts to think of everybody as a fellow "Climber" with as much right to enjoy the rock as the next person, the sooner this stupid debate will go away.

So either become adult about this, or nominate a person to be the nursery school teacher. . . .


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 1:49 pm 
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DA Caveman
Quote:
And whoever wants to bolt a trad line/splitter crack at a sportcrag, Boven, Cederberg or even the moon should be sent there, to the moon I mean!


One of the 1st routes ever done at Boven is a Splitter crack opened by Peter Lazarus who actually discovered Boven as a climbing venue. I forget the name of the route and but it was trad. It was later bolted. Once you start bolting it is almost unstoppable. This is has been shown in the US where access to crags is a very costly and major issue. As the rules for bolting relax, so the hordes stream in and with it environmental degradation. This is not the case with trad climbing in SA. Period! However it is an extreme irony that the only purely trad venue in Montague is banned to climbers (Lost World) owing to some yobs coming along and trashing the place and the access. Having said that, Lost World has several bolts and lower offs.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 1:54 pm 
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Thank you Larry, for making this incredibly valuable point! We didn't start climbing with pre-conceived ideas of "i want to be a sport-climber" or "I want to be a trad climber", or any other type of climbing there is. We started climbing with the single preconception of "i want to get on top of this piece of rock, and sure as hell i will enjoy doing it!". We love climbing, are passionate about, obsessed with it. It being climbing.

Then ethics came and spoiled the fun. Ethics is a cultural manifestation, based on personal conviction of what goes for ME and what not. I don't say ethics is bad - but i say it is SEVERELY tainted by personal preference. Traddies choose to bitch about bolters, sport-climbers tend to bitch when they can't bolt. and so we forget why we're doing this, and fall victim to the firm grasp of childish debate.

the debate usually goes like this:

Party A: "This ball is green!!!"
Party B: "Your ball can't be green, because MY ball is red!!"
Party A: "No! your ball can't be red, because my ball is GREEEEEN"

We miss each other completely. You have your ball, I have mine. We respect each other and try not to quarrel about it. If you want a red and a green ball, then buy both, but don't bitch about my ball just because yours is different.

Fact is, trad climb has a certain domain, which should be respected. And so does sport. And bouldering. These disciplines can and MUST co-exist. We MUST be able to bolt lines that can't be protected with trad gear, and we MUST respect trad lines for what they are, even if they are surrounded by sport lines.

As for sustainability of bolts, it is a problem, and there is a solution. In the... yes, here it comes... trad world, there is something like Removable Bolts. Basically it is an expansion bolt with a cam-like trigger mechanism, which can be placed in a pre-drilled hole and removed after climbing. And it can take lots of hammering. Which means, all that's needed is a hole in the rock. All you do is place your removable bolt, much in the same manner you'd place your quick draws. The hangers won't need replacing, because there are no hangers to replace. Awesome! say thank you traddies!

Attachment:
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Anyway, the point is: these buggers stick, and a small 10mm hole is not half as unsightly as a rusted piece of shitty metal to be confused with something that can save your life.

Andrew: I agree with you, you must be allowed to bolt blank faces. As many people said, the problem here is that it opens the door for the idiots who see it as an open invitation to bolt everything. And Magalies is pristine exactly because we don't have that problem. Crags like Wigwam, man, they're sooooo awesome!! we need to get more of those, and i know there's more of it in magalies - they question is: how do we regulate bolting?


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 1:58 pm 
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Hi All
Some thoughts of mine.

Firstly:
Two years ago on a rainy day Hector and me found Wig Wam. One day of exploring and we found which by some accounts is possibly the best hard sport crag in the country.
So my advice Andrew is to go exploring, there must be other crags like that out there. Everytime I drive past Boven I see miles of rock.

Secondly:

Quote:
There are actually quite a number of existing sport climbs in the kloofs only on the untradable lines, thanks to effective control over the years.


The effective control you refer to is a moratorium on any new bolts in the kloofs, you guys pushed your luck 2 years ago by adding another bolt on Terminator when there was a perfectly good absolutely bomber nr 1 or 2 cam placement in a very clippable position. It's an easy climb to rig a rope on. So why not rap in and place the cam if you’r not willing to do it on lead. The point of this is you already broke the rules that were in place. How can we trust you not to break the rules again?

Thirdly:
Say for instance your King Line in Cedarberg turns out to be an absolute classic, one of those climbs that people are willing to travel the world for to climb, think Realization, Cobra crack etc....
Now every Euro dog and his belay bunny is all over the Kloofs. Then some guy reckons he needs a warmup or something to keep his girlfriend busy. A lot of the time strangers in an area won't know the rules and let’s face it, unless you have somebody actively involved/policing it then somebody will inevitably bolt something else as happened a couple of years ago at Rocklands and we almost lost access to the place. This is the thin end of the wedge and before we know it we have sh*t in the paths, ciggarette butts everywhere, destroyed vegetation etc. Maybe your question at the top of the post should rather be, "Can we trust hordes of climbers not to trash an area?" I very much doubt it.

Andrew my sense of what you are actually concerned about are two things:

There are very few climbers that are willing to get of their butts and put in some hard work looking for new crags and negotiating with landowners over access. It’s much easier to just go and pillage the existing areas.

There are a limited number of climbing areas where you have a 30 minute flat walk in, with long overhanging walls within 1.5 hours drive from a major urban centre. Not much you can do about that, there's not that many in the world to start with, and there is only one that I know of that is not trashed...

Here is a proposal. I know of some other crags where the potential exists for some hard sport routes. I will let you know where one of them is for every 20 tradable routes of my choice at Boven that gets chopped. Then we can have a verifiable answer to your original question regarding whether sport and trad can live together at the same crag without possibly sacrificing a relative pristine area like the Magaliesberg.

As an aside:
If all forms of climbing are equal why don't we recognise first ascents of routes done on top rope?

Regards
Ian


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 2:35 pm 
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Location: JHB
If we remove emotion from the situation I think it is fairly simple:

1) Trad is the purest form of protected climbing (walk up to the rock, climb, top out, no bolts - meaning no anchors either) and it carries the spirit of pioneering (finding that new face and climbing it)

2) Sport is necessary when it is not possible to climb trad (and there are many of these routes)

If it can be climbed trad, leave it like that (this could mean that a sport climber would never get to climb a crack but there are already enough bolted cracks to climb. and if you really want to climb that crack use trad gear). By the same token it should be possible for a sport route to exist next to a trad route. I dont believe bolts on a route next to a trad route should hurt the mental attitude of a trad climber anymore than the chalk marks from a prior trad ascent, in my opinion, if the bolts bother you, then the fact that the route / area has previously been climbed (sport or trad) should also bother you and you should be out pioneering new trad routes.

The issue of mess etc at the crags is really a separate issue as I dont see that sport climbers are more messy than trad climbers, the only factor is there are more sport climbers, which has its positives and negatives


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 3:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 178
Location: Cape Town
I have climbed trad, bouldered and sport climb... i love them all and dont see why they cannot co-exist. I think some areas have become sport areas and even though there are tradable lines they are bolted as the area is predominantly sport. If this didn't happen only the hard lines would be bolted and effectively easier climbing sport climbers would be excluded.

To me i don't see any reason why areas in Magaliesberg cant be managed and lines where no trad protection exists should be allowed to be bolted. I kind of get the feeling that trad climbers think that trad is the only real climbing and that sport and bouldering are lame, its pretty arrogant view point if you ask me.

I mostly love sport climbing, because for me it has the most amount of movement without the hindrance of gear and is safe. Does that make me less of a climber than anyone ... i don't think so.

Basically with proper management why can trad and sport not co-exist...

Also i think the discovery of some more great sport areas in the country would be great for the scene in this country, saying that there are enough sport areas already is a very limited way of seeing things.


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