Whats this double rope system

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napaman
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Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:33 am
Real Name: Andrew Kyriacou

Whats this double rope system

Postby napaman » Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:53 pm

Hi.....Me again.

In a lot of magazines that im busy reading about climbing most pictures feature sport climbers (if im ot mistaken) using a double rope system. They alternate which rope they use on the draws. why are they doing this and should we be following this system.

Andrew
Here is a pic of what i mean.
Image

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Baldrick
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Re: Whats this double rope system

Postby Baldrick » Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:26 pm

Hi Napaman, if you look closely you will notice that this climber is using trad gear which is quite normal for a double rope system to be used. Nuts and cams on his harness and pitons in the rock.
Looks like a nice climb, is there any mention of where it is?
cheers

Dave Vallet
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Re: Whats this double rope system

Postby Dave Vallet » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:08 pm

He's using a "Half" rope system,
Double usually implies a "Twin" rope system.
- not that the wording means as much as the equipment, and use. But if you walk into a store and ask for a set of double ropes, you'll probably be handed twins. so take care there. -

Personally, I think it can be a wise to use a half rope system while craging (sport climbing)
could elliminate a ground fall whilst trying to high clip the 2nd bolt.
I don't know if I would use Half ropes in that scenario. They have more stretch, so you'll fall further making those boulder starts a potential heel smacking experience. so, full ropes with a half rope system.
Although, It can also be a bigger mission to belay, and the reality is that rope drag (one of the main purposes of a "half rope" system,) shouldn't really be an issue on a sport climb.

So, Napman. If there is a really scary 2nd clip, It could be a safer sollution to borrow another full rope, and go with this style, otherwise I'd just climb with a full rope.
unless, your on a multi-pitch with sharp rock, (like the incident in Australia).

and that's my 2 cents-.
later d

shorti
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Re: Whats this double rope system

Postby shorti » Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:26 am

half ropes also helps spreading the load of a fall too. Well at least it can. I feel much more comfortable if I can get two pieces of pro in, one on each rope, before I do a desperate move or a long run-out.

Jan Viljoen
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Re: Whats this double rope system

Postby Jan Viljoen » Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:20 pm

Apart from the added safety, I prefer using two ropes on trad climbing in order to reduce rope drag. By clipping pro to my left with one rope, and pro to my right with the other, I create two parallel lines instead of a single rope that would have gone zig-zag. On long trad routes the extra rope also enables you to do full length (50m?) abseils by knotting the two together.

Cheers!

zabullet
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Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:49 am

Re: Whats this double rope system

Postby zabullet » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:23 pm

Dave Vallet wrote:I don't know if I would use Half ropes in that scenario. They have more stretch, so you'll fall further making those boulder starts a potential heel smacking experience. so, full ropes with a half rope system.


Not true at all. Completely depends on the rope.

e.g.
Tendon Master 7.8mm Static: 8% Dynamic: 32% (Half)
Bluewater Slimline Elite 10.3mm Static: 9.2% Dynamic: 34.7% (Single)

zb.

napaman
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Real Name: Andrew Kyriacou

Re: Whats this double rope system

Postby napaman » Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:36 pm

Thanks for the replies.

Baldrick: Dont know where that is, i used google images to find that pic.

Dave Vallet
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Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:04 pm

Re: Whats this double rope system

Postby Dave Vallet » Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:56 pm

Bullet Dude,

They test half rope elongation with a 55kg load,
and single rope elongation with an 80kg load,

Quote, "Dynamic extension:
This is the measure of the stretch of the rope (≤=40%) during the arrest of the first fall (with 80kg for a single rope, 55kg for a double rope, and 80kg on two strands of twin rope). " Beal Ropes

dv

Dave Vallet
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Re: Whats this double rope system

Postby Dave Vallet » Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:07 pm

This link might explain it better,
http://www.bealplanet.com/portail-2006/ ... de&lang=us

and before you jump on me for the last quote,
They called a half rope a double rope... (they got iot wrong)
If you look at the tags defining the ropes, you'll note the number 1 in a circle indicates a single rope.
the number 1/2 in a circle indicates a half rope.
two circles interlocking and surrounded by another circle indicates a twin rope.

later
d

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XMod
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Re: Whats this double rope system

Postby XMod » Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:31 pm

Single ropes are simpler and make you look fly, double ropes are too much trouble, too many knots to tie, twin ropes are for those like it colder, or you can just get bolder - and use no ropes at all!

Old Smelly
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Re: Whats this double rope system

Postby Old Smelly » Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:47 pm

Possibly Napaman has been confused by U.S. Trad climbers who tend to climb long vertical cracks with a single rope, clipping their pro directly to the rope. In the South African context this is not normally the best approach if one has to wander about the cliff face looking for pro. Here the Left/ Right option suggested is the best approach & even then all protection often has to be "extended" to get the ropes to run nicely :mrgreen:

Sometimes in SA we can climb trad on a single rope strand but then one needs to know how to extend the rope & use rollers to not run into rope drag issues.

Hope this helps clear up the difference between instances where you see single or double ropes.
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

Gaston
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Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:26 pm

Re: Whats this double rope system

Postby Gaston » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:58 am

Rope drag is an important aspect to consider when using 2 ropes, but there is another very important reason to avoid zig-zagging of ropes when placing pro:

When you place gear, you generally try to anticipate the angle of pull should you take a fall. A fall would usually result in a downward pull on highest piece of gear. If your rope is in a straight line (because you have used extensions, or 2 ropes) all the other pro only acts as a backup should your top piece fail, but actually, is unnaffected by the fall.

If you make a series of placements that result in your rope zig-zagging up the route, a fall would result in all the protection you have placed being pulled at different angles (imagine the zig-zag trying to straighten out). These angles are not going to be the typical downward angle which you probably anticipated when placing the gear (will be more like a side-ways pull towards the imaginery center-line of the zig-zag) and there is therefore a decent chance that your pro will pop out (depending on choice of gear and placements).

And this is a good way of achieving the zipper effect... which is a good way of achieving the bleeding affect...

Dave Vallet
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Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:04 pm

Re: Whats this double rope system

Postby Dave Vallet » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:51 pm

Hey Gaston,

I follow your logic, and it seems pretty sound.
although, if we take it into the context of rock climbing were rope-drag may be an issue,
and a half rope system is needed to avoid that drag.
Say I extended all my protection with a 60cm sling,
then every piece of protection on my right rope would have to be within 60cm on a vertical plane, from the last piece, the same would apply with the protection on my left rope.
In order for that reasoning to take effect.
Seems like a lot of slings and a pretty direct route.

There are other reasons to use a single rope system in the traditional arena,
If you have 2 people seconding, and you are using a half rope system, then one or both of those seconding ,may face large pendulum falls.

later
d


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