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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:53 am
Posts: 899
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Bolts, Bouldering and Consumerism

I have been reading bemusedly the debates and the slagging vis-à-vis bolting for some years now and it is clear that climbing can be compared to religion. Everyone has their personal beliefs regarding the style, ethics and finer details of how climbing routes should be created. There are literally thousands of articles that try to define these parameters.

However if one applies some thought, one realizes that all sport is extremely esoteric if one considers the “hierarchical needs of the human being”. Most sports played in the world have something to with controlling a ball (not always round) according to a certain set of rules that are continually modified. Soccer is the most common sport played. Other sports are “athletic” and are measured by how fast, how far, how difficult and so on. Then there are other categories such as the wheeled sports and flying etc. Then there is sport rock climbing which is still categorized as an “extreme” sport although I consider it to be really “gymnastic”.

So one may ask: “What actually is a climbing route?”

In the broader sense I propose that one can view a sport climbing route as a game. The game entails following a trail up some “challenging,” less than horizontal part of terra firma and several rules apply whereby an individual’s abilities and achievement can be measured and compared. In this sense sport climbing is comparable to other sports except that the accolades and rewards are more mature and clearly defined in sports such as soccer, cycling, skiing and so on. These “accolades” include trophies, world ratings or medals at the various events organized around the world. When it comes to “rewards” – well, cash is still king and every year the media proclaims the highest earners in the various games that are played.

And this is where bolted sport routes and bouldering finds it niche. One can argue that the very essence of climbing a bolted or boulder route is that a fairly objective and comparable scoring system can be applied to the game of climbing so that the members of society can grant “accolades” and “awards” or “rewards” for a given level of excellence and achievement. This is the way that climbing has evolved to “level the playing field” to bring it line with other sports. And the spin off from this is the explosion of commercialism in climbing in general to the point that there are now more indoor climbers in the US than outdoor climbers. One needs only to see the proliferation in the media coverage to appreciate how climbing has evolved over the last 10 years. It is merely a question of time before the rules are clearly defined and climbing and its subgroups such as ice climbing finds it place in the Olympic games.

This evolution has led to the conflict with the traditionalists where virtually every route climbed has its individual character, rules and ethical nuances. Not the least is the level of commitment to danger that many routes require. In fact some 20 years ago a collection of articles was published called “The Games Climbers Play”. This vividly portrayed the individuality and esotericism of climbers. Perhaps one can view a “traditional” climb as a dangerous adventure rather than a game. And the accolades and rewards are more abstract to the point that it can arguably call a “fringe lunatic” activity.

And here lies the problem when traditionalists try and compare their achievements and abilities. Any route that is “created” using fixed pro is by and large contrived to suit the relative style, abilities and ethos of its creator. “Subjecting the climb to our own level of mediocrity” to paraphrase Duncan Elliot. Most, if not all, traditionalists have put in fixed pro at one time or another to bring a particular route to an acceptable level of risk for that individual. (We also, all, use other aids such as chalk and sticky rubber on our shoes and modern gear is much safer than in the past that all alter the seriousness, character and even difficulty of a route).

Furthermore, any metallic attack of the rock, especially the insertion and removal of pitons will change the nature of the climbing. Nary a route on the big stone (El Capitan) would be free climbed today without the thousands of ascents where piton after piton has been smashed into ever widening cracks to the point that fairly large camming devices now fit. And more, the speed ascents would not be possible but for the “manufactured” holds and fixed pro. Give it a few more years and a few more pegs smashed into the thin crack under the great roof on “the Nose” and maybe someone else other than Lynn Hill or Tommy Caldwell may be able to fit their finger tips and free the pitch. Lower down, one of the classic routes in Yosemite, Serenity Crack typifies the kind of route that is directly a product of holds and gear placements that have emerged from the ironmongery performed on it over all these years. But for this I doubt it would actually have been climbed at all even if it was bolted as a modern sport route. But it would be without question a completely different route – perhaps another miserably thin friction eliminate at Yosemite with a hairline crack running up a fairly non-descript piece of rock.

Many of the classic routes have had major modifications and are completely different in character from their first ascents during the “Golden Years”. I find it intriguing, that I have never read an article that truly evaluates the modern achievements of free or speed climbing of these “chipped” routes while putting the evolution of the route into any kind of perspective.

The most bizarre aspect of the bolting furor is that the loudest critics of both camps are also the ones putting in the time, money and energy in one form or the other while the majority of climbers/users are merely “on the take”. Most sport climbers have contributed little if anything to climbing itself; most have never done a first ascent of a route, assisted with maintaining a walking trail or placed or replaced a fixed piece of gear. They probably laugh at the worker bees and gleefully clip another bolt that cost R20 each and a lot of time and effort to place.

So what claim of “ownership” does a first ascentionist have on a route?

I think a pragmatic view is that the first ascensionist can, at best, claim a long term “lease” of a route if he/she has climbed it ground up free without any fixed protection and preferably without any aid that damages or marks the rock – and this would include chalk. If the first ascentionist has “manufactured” the route in any way, “ownership” can only last as long as he or she maintains the character of the route and ensures that the quality of the fixed pro is as good as on the first ascent. As we all know, this is rarely done. Having said this, why make every climb accessible to every yob. It certainly can’t be altruism. If it’s so important to climb it, then top rope it and move on. Only one’s ego can drive the process of bolting or retro-bolting every route and this act undeniably changes a route’s character for ever. But then there is the argument that there is nothing stopping a trad climber from using removable gear on a bolted route, if they so choose.

Routes that are oft repeated (“consumer routes”) accumulate chalk on the holds and this has a far greater visual impact than the bolts. Chalk also marks the holds and critically alters the technical difficulty of most routes. This problem, at least in South Africa, is rare on trad routes but pervasive on bolted routes.

Finally, anybody that cannot see the link of bolted routes to consumerism should undergo a reality check. Bolted routes allow for climbs to be concentrated, accessible, faster, cheaper, less complicated and safer than “trad” lines. Unfortunately “consumerism” is engulfing climbing. There is an explosion of sport climbing around the world. Many of the Thailand beaches are over-run with climbers. The sewage can’t keep up and every visitor to Tonsai Beach will get sick sooner or later. I have been twice and will not return. The crags in Spain and France are a mess. And here lies the problem with bolting, it does unquestionably promote consumerism. There are probably hundreds of thousands of good routes all around the world that nobody could climb in ten life times. And yet, “more is better”. Does it really matter that there is fine line to climb that is not bolted. Go top rope it.

The climbing commercial market has also grown exponentially since bolting proliferated with listed companies sponsoring individuals and events throughout the world. Apparel companies are flourishing and there are even fashion trends that initially started with shiny “loud” lycra but has now evolved to a more grungy, very expensive, gothic look (which is by and large very impractical in our sunny weather). Climbers are invading areas in hordes where before only a few die-hard trad climbers would have bothered to go in the past. In tandem with this, bouldering has also proliferated and chalk-marked boulders litter many a roadside around the world.

It is mandatory to control “consumerist” bolting in ecological sensitive areas which in my view does not include most of the Cape Peninsula including Paarl rock area seeing as there are roads and trails and picnic spots everywhere not to mention the hundreds of wine farms. The Cape Peninsula is fast becoming a world class tourist area and climbing could be one of its main attractions. With it must come the controls that should probably directly include the commercial “for profit” businesses that would benefit from tourists. Areas such as the Magaliesberg and our internationally famous “Rocklands” is another matter altogether and very careful management of these areas is necessary, both in the proliferation of bolted routes and boulder problems. There really are enough less sensitive places to climb around the world.

So in conclusion, the debate on bolting should not be driven by sentiment if we accept how esoteric climbing really is. There is no right or wrong. However individuals should be prevailed on to display some humility and curtail their personal gratification and aggrandizement and enrichment and respect the style of existing trad routes. There is always the option of top-roping a route, or pre-placing gear if you really feel you have to climb it. At this stage I think it is imperative to leave those routes alone. All things being relative there are few left. Go and find your own lines to climb if you cannot get enough satisfaction from the existing routes. South Africa has limitless potential and it merely takes a bit of time and effort to explore new places and open new routes. There is more than enough for the sport climbers to play on without changing the character of the older routes. A route without character is just a blur and a number and a tick; soon to be forgotten.


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 Post subject: Continued...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:10 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:53 am
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Furthermore, any metallic attack of the rock, especially the insertion and removal of pitons will change the nature of the climbing. Nary a route on the big stone (El Capitan) would be free climbed today without the thousands of ascents where piton after piton has been smashed into ever widening cracks to the point that fairly large camming devices now fit. And more, the speed ascents would not be possible but for the “manufactured” holds and fixed pro. Give it a few more years and a few more pegs smashed into the thin crack under the great roof on “the Nose” and maybe someone else other than Lynn Hill or Tommy Caldwell may be able to fit their finger tips and free the pitch. Lower down, one of the classic routes in Yosemite, Serenity Crack typifies the kind of route that is directly a product of holds and gear placements that have emerged from the ironmongery performed on it over all these years. But for this I doubt it would actually have been climbed at all even if it was bolted as a modern sport route. But it would be without question a completely different route – perhaps another miserably thin friction eliminate at Yosemite with a hairline crack running up a fairly non-descript piece of rock.

Many of the classic routes have had major modifications and are completely different in character from their first ascents during the “Golden Years”. I find it intriguing, that I have never read an article that truly evaluates the modern achievements of free or speed climbing of these “chipped” routes while putting the evolution of the route into any kind of perspective.

The most bizarre aspect of the bolting furor is that the loudest critics of both camps are also the ones putting in the time, money and energy in one form or the other while the majority of climbers/users are merely “on the take”. Most sport climbers have contributed little if anything to climbing itself; most have never done a first ascent of a route, assisted with maintaining a walking trail or placed or replaced a fixed piece of gear. They probably laugh at the worker bees and gleefully clip another bolt that cost R20 each and a lot of time and effort to place.

So what claim of “ownership” does a first ascentionist have on a route?

I think a pragmatic view is that the first ascensionist can, at best, claim a long term “lease” of a route if he/she has climbed it ground up free without any fixed protection and preferably without any aid that damages or marks the rock – and this would include chalk. If the first ascentionist has “manufactured” the route in any way, “ownership” can only last as long as he or she maintains the character of the route and ensures that the quality of the fixed pro is as good as on the first ascent. As we all know, this is rarely done. Having said this, why make every climb accessible to every yob. It certainly can’t be altruism. If it’s so important to climb it, then top rope it and move on. Only one’s ego can drive the process of bolting or retro-bolting every route and this act undeniably changes a route’s character for ever. But then there is the argument that there is nothing stopping a trad climber from using removable gear on a bolted route, if they so choose.

Routes that are oft repeated (“consumer routes”) accumulate chalk on the holds and this has a far greater visual impact than the bolts. Chalk also marks the holds and critically alters the technical difficulty of most routes. This problem, at least in South Africa, is rare on trad routes but pervasive on bolted routes.

Finally, anybody that cannot see the link of bolted routes to consumerism should undergo a reality check. Bolted routes allow for climbs to be concentrated, accessible, faster, cheaper, less complicated and safer than “trad” lines. Unfortunately “consumerism” is engulfing climbing. There is an explosion of sport climbing around the world. Many of the Thailand beaches are over-run with climbers. The sewage can’t keep up and every visitor to Tonsai Beach will get sick sooner or later. I have been twice and will not return. The crags in Spain and France are a mess. And here lies the problem with bolting, it does unquestionably promote consumerism. There are probably hundreds of thousands of good routes all around the world that nobody could climb in ten life times. And yet, “more is better”. Does it really matter that there is fine line to climb that is not bolted. Go top rope it.

The climbing commercial market has also grown exponentially since bolting proliferated with listed companies sponsoring individuals and events throughout the world. Apparel companies are flourishing and there are even fashion trends that initially started with shiny “loud” lycra but has now evolved to a more grungy, very expensive, gothic look (which is by and large very impractical in our sunny weather). Climbers are invading areas in hordes where before only a few die-hard trad climbers would have bothered to go in the past. In tandem with this, bouldering has also proliferated and chalk-marked boulders litter many a roadside around the world.

It is mandatory to control “consumerist” bolting in ecological sensitive areas which in my view does not include most of the Cape Peninsula including Paarl rock area seeing as there are roads and trails and picnic spots everywhere not to mention the hundreds of wine farms. The Cape Peninsula is fast becoming a world class tourist area and climbing could be one of its main attractions. With it must come the controls that should probably directly include the commercial “for profit” businesses that would benefit from tourists. Areas such as the Magaliesberg and our internationally famous “Rocklands” is another matter altogether and very careful management of these areas is necessary, both in the proliferation of bolted routes and boulder problems. There really are enough less sensitive places to climb around the world.

So in conclusion, the debate on bolting should not be driven by sentiment if we accept how esoteric climbing really is. There is no right or wrong. However individuals should be prevailed on to display some humility and curtail their personal gratification and aggrandizement and enrichment and respect the style of existing trad routes. There is always the option of top-roping a route, or pre-placing gear if you really feel you have to climb it. At this stage I think it is imperative to leave those routes alone. All things being relative there are few left. Go and find your own lines to climb if you cannot get enough satisfaction from the existing routes. South Africa has limitless potential and it merely takes a bit of time and effort to explore new places and open new routes. There is more than enough for the sport climbers to play on without changing the character of the older routes. A route without character is just a blur and a number and a tick; soon to be forgotten.


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 Post subject: Continued...
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:13 am 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
I have been twice and will not return. The crags in Spain and France are a mess. And here lies the problem with bolting, it does unquestionably promote consumerism. There are probably hundreds of thousands of good routes all around the world that nobody could climb in ten life times. And yet, “more is better”. Does it really matter that there is fine line to climb that is not bolted. Go top rope it.

The climbing commercial market has also grown exponentially since bolting proliferated with listed companies sponsoring individuals and events throughout the world. Apparel companies are flourishing and there are even fashion trends that initially started with shiny “loud” lycra but has now evolved to a more grungy, very expensive, gothic look (which is by and large very impractical in our sunny weather). Climbers are invading areas in hordes where before only a few die-hard trad climbers would have bothered to go in the past. In tandem with this, bouldering has also proliferated and chalk-marked boulders litter many a roadside around the world.

It is mandatory to control “consumerist” bolting in ecological sensitive areas which in my view does not include most of the Cape Peninsula including Paarl rock area seeing as there are roads and trails and picnic spots everywhere not to mention the hundreds of wine farms. The Cape Peninsula is fast becoming a world class tourist area and climbing could be one of its main attractions. With it must come the controls that should probably directly include the commercial “for profit” businesses that would benefit from tourists. Areas such as the Magaliesberg and our internationally famous “Rocklands” is another matter altogether and very careful management of these areas is necessary, both in the proliferation of bolted routes and boulder problems. There really are enough less sensitive places to climb around the world.

So in conclusion, the debate on bolting should not be driven by sentiment if we accept how esoteric climbing really is. There is no right or wrong. However individuals should be prevailed on to display some humility and curtail their personal gratification and aggrandizement and enrichment and respect the style of existing trad routes. There is always the option of top-roping a route, or pre-placing gear if you really feel you have to climb it. At this stage I think it is imperative to leave those routes alone. All things being relative there are few left. Go and find your own lines to climb if you cannot get enough satisfaction from the existing routes. South Africa has limitless potential and it merely takes a bit of time and effort to explore new places and open new routes. There is more than enough for the sport climbers to play on without changing the character of the older routes. A route without character is just a blur and a number and a tick; soon to be forgotten.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:46 am 
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Well said for someone who is respected in the climbing community - and who makes money from it.....

(?)

I say let Trad be exactly that..... TRADITIONAL...


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:09 am 
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Excellent essay Snort - thanks for taking the time - well worth the read.

On Babycoat, I have put in a query to the MCSA com (who manage the kloof in question) on the rules in the kloof and await their reply.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:32 am 
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Thanks for the nice words Pillick but some errata: I have never made a cent out of climbing and that includes CityROCK. I have never accepted any cash or gear for sponsorship for a climbing trip. To date I have directly \"invested\" over R1million hard cash into climbing stuff including personally sponsoring individuals from time to time. FYI if you live in Cape Town then doing a new modern route in Blouberg, which usually takes up to 5 trips - do the math. And then there is a route for anyone to climb free.

The reason that there is no world class climbing gym in JHB is that it is A VERY RISKY AND EXPENSIVE endeavour. And JHB has the market! Believe me, I ain't going there.

It is extremely difficult to make a living out of climbing. Ask any guide or shop owner. It is only the apparal traders that can and do. Even Yvon Chouinard got out of hardware and into clothes. There is hardly a climber that doesn't have some hideously expensive branded gear but will balk at buying a mate a beer.

So in short, (or is that snort) I do not make any money out of climbing and almost certainly never will! But that's OK :D


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:39 pm 
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Thanks for clearing it up SNORT. For a moment there I thought you were being holier than thou

And then, to Fanta, dude you are entertaining - not matter what the others say, I am not convinced that you would go chopping bolts anyway - it's good to have passion - that is after all what makes all of us go climbing.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:09 pm 
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It is clear from this thread that we all have a strong set of ethics. I think we can rest assured that in the Magaliesberg, a bolt will never be placed on a line that does not already have bolts. That is a good thing, as it is a trad area. I wonder how the old timers got away with it though - theres no way a new classic like In Bed with Madonna or Terminator would be possible today, though I think its not a bad thing, there are enough sport routes in the kloofs. I hope that people can see that the single bolt and chain that I placed is not going to lead to a torrent of quickdraw yielding punters.

Going back to Fantas comments about putting the kloofs first, while still being able to climb there, we need to stop trampling up and down the gullies, setting up slings around trees and walking along the top and base of the kloof as much as possible. I have done a few trad climbs in the kloofs and noticed the slings and old tat here and there and worn trees and vines that have suffered from years of being pulled on and belayed off. Rather ironically, in the UK, they placed top anchors at some crags to reduce this damage and it works. I also think that swimming and kloofing which seems to be popular amongst members is also potentially damaging, disturbing the delicate plants at the waters edge and botton, as well as being one helluva an eye sore! Anyway, it will all work out fine in the end, we are all good people.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:27 am 
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I was introduced to climbing by a friend that convinced me we should go climb Blouberg because it will be a great experience. I did not know where Blouberg was. I did not even know there was the two (trad \\ sport) different styles of climbing, only that we needed to practice hard. It turned out to be a lot of fun but as we were practising on an indoor wall I got into sport climbing and only quite a bit later realised that trad is quite a bit different. :shock:

A lot of time has passed, I've never been trad climbing but would like to try it and would still like to head out to Blouberg one day. However, having watched (and learned) a lot on these forum discussions I am dismayed at the condescending tone taken, seemingly as a general trend, by trad climbers towards sport climbers. This seems to also extend to MCSA members towards non-MCSA members to the point where I don't really care to \"join the club\" anymore. (sidenote: the \"newbie info\" evening I attended did not help much to change this perception)

I resent being referred to in a collective or as an individual as \"quickdraw yielding punters\" and the many other derogatory terms so often dished out towards non-trad climbers. I believe the bad element in the sport discipline is more pronounced purely as a result of the much higher number of participants and that trad climbers probably also have issues to deal with, for example such as noted above with regards to vegetation, even with your limited numbers.

So, to all you holier than thou, double roped sniffers of Cincinatti air freshener, goanstuffthatcamwherethesundontshine. Yomommaskloof. I can respect strong viewpoints, but your generalisations and attitudes are tiresome.

:twisted: 8) :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:50 am 
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^^ what he said ^^

Just an aside - I don't think Andrew meant that phrase in a bad way, if you know him you'll understand his ethical standpoint. Andrew has contributed more than most in this country towards sport AND trad, so I doubt he's being demeaning. Still I agree with you OneDog, and I remember a certain guy called guest and his outspoken attitude towards exactly what you point out.

By the way, when I clicked your provided link, all I got was:
web filter wrote:
Access Denied (policy_denied)
Your system policy has denied access to the requested URL.
For assistance, contact the Helpdesk on 5500.

Your request was categorized by Blue Coat Web Filter as 'Adult/Mature Content;Reference'.
If you wish to question or dispute this result, please click here.

Its not rude by any chance, is it? :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:00 am 
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nosmo wrote:
I don't think Andrew meant that phrase in a bad way

Agreed, but a good example - quickest I could find.


nosmo wrote:
By the way, when I clicked your provided link, all I got was:

I think you're webfilter might be a MCSA trad climber :lol: :lol:

Not that rude - it's a fart left in an elevator just before you leave, a little present for the next passenger.

I'm not really all serioussed up & upset, it's just annoying and I wanted to throw my toys too, because they can. And I want to too. Mwhaaaaaa. Mama!!!!
:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:57 am 
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OneDog, you are so correct in saying that the MCSA has an elitist attitude, and I for one support you in saying you'll never join, and in my opinion, nobody should be joining the MCSA. I will NEVER join them, as I can have my own tea and cakes on Wednesday nights thanks.

It's unfortunate that Guest has deleted all of his postings on the thread \"MCSA Apologises\", but just a few highlights from the 'members':

Quote:
Chalk wrote:
There is an easy way of making a big difference – join the MCSA, pay your subscription (which will give the club money to put programs in place). Even easier – have you noticed on the club nights when new people stand around and look out of place, go over a greet them and make them feel welcome, regardless of who they are.


I just love the \"regardless of who they are\" part!

Quote:
Mark wrote:
I am saying treat \"everyone\" equally. Chalk made a good example of making everyone welcome and part of the climbing community. We should do it because we are decent people - that should be our motive. We should open our arms in friendship


Just like they did to Ed? Nice apology by the by. 12 years too late, and while you guys are at it, how disrespectful to try and make Ed an honoury member. How tacky and tactless.

Quote:
Kyle wrote:
If you ask me there is something behind this whole delay because if one delves a little deeper into MCSA history one will see that they weren't merely the unwitting victims of the apartheid regime...


Quote:
Megawat wrote:
I do think MCSA needs to look at attempting to colour up its membership - the new SA is no place to be too pale, especially when you own land.


need I say more???

read the whole thread here: http://www.climb.co.za/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=638&highlight=mcsa+apologises

There were 16 000 views on this thread, and 'members' were getting amped. My opinion is that what is the point of marginalizing an already tiny group? I too agree that this forum is full of people who instantly flame others, a very aggressive attitude and one that chases MANY MANY people away from this site. Guys like Fanta need to be kept in check because they actually discredit all of us with their bad vibes.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:46 pm 
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THREADJACK !! :o

@OneDog, @8a
Please start another thread if you want to diss the MCSA or tradclimbers in general, and MCSA tradclimbers in particular.

Before your threadjack we were discussing bolts in the kloofs:

Quote:
I hope that people can see that the single bolt and chain that I placed is not going to lead to [sportsclimbing in the kloof]


@AndrewP:
One bolt, on its own, isn't a big deal. But even Boven was bolted one bolt at a time.

One bolt becomes the thin end of an undesirable* wedge. You have to draw the line somewhere. As far as I was aware, that line had been drawn: a moratorium on bolting in the kloofs. Unless you know otherwise.

Which brings me to my previous question: did you consult the landowner before bolting?

* Apologies to OneDog's fragile ego. This isn't a comment on the relative merits of trad and sport climbing, just a statement that, by common consensus, the kloofs are not to become a sports climbing venue.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:10 pm 
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BAbycoat wrote:
Please start another thread if you want to diss the MCSA or tradclimbers in general, and MCSA tradclimbers in particular.

No. It's more fun here.

BAbycoat wrote:
* Apologies to OneDog's fragile ego.


:lol: lmfao :lol:
With my level of climbing I can assure you I have a very robust ego, I would die of blushing too much otherwise.

My objection to the dissing of sport climbers on this type of thread stands, if you want to diss sport climber or object to my objection ( or then this objection to your objection to my objection), please go start YOUR own thread, which seems like a good idea anyway since this one seems a like a dead-end discussion anyway. "We trad, you sport, you bad"

8) I can like to type objection now.

Please don't get your panties all tied up, my post was not intended to be taken too seriously. I'll add some smileys if it'll help? 8)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:33 pm 
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@Baby: On a (very) slightly serious note:

I get your point. That does not mean mine is not valid, and I think it's relevant to this discussion as sport climbers always get the bad wrap in these.

I'll leave your thread alone now, don't worry. I had enough fun typing \"objection\". It made my fingers feel stronger. Not to mention the ego...having my name mentioned in the same line / sentence as (a) 8a_climber :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:47 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:22 am
Posts: 108
“Quickdraw wielding” very funny…..
MCSA elitist – so what, let them be elitist. If you wanna pay club fees to be a member, so be it. Do you really care what so called “elitist” feel or think about you?

Come on, really, this is becoming a childish “he said, she said” situation.

The past is history.

We don’t have Formula 1, Rally and Truck drivers comparing themselves or their vehicles – it is different disciplines. The way this thread is turning out, does nothing for our sport.

I love Trad, Sports, Boulder and Ice CLIMBING!!!!

Sport climbing normally equals easy access and hard climbing. Trad takes you out to the country and awesome routes. Bouldering is very special. Ice is something everyone needs to experience at least once.

Something you should think of if you love the mountains…. we’ll all probably end up to be old hikers one day, when we can’t climb anymore…… now there is a scary thought….

Peace


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:58 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:34 pm
Posts: 372
Location: Under my bed
I've had an epiphany. I'll be at the club tomorrow night, starting the path towards becoming a member. And we can, together, change the elitist attitude. Viva!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:38 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:17 am
Posts: 147
and anyone who gives aways coffee and cookies for free has my vote anyday! :P

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you have one mouth, two ears. listen more...


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:00 am
Posts: 145
sheesh brolloks, I never took you to be that easy! (or is it cheap?) :lol:

nosmo: which one section, if I may ask?

I'm still for instituting the BBL (Bikini Bouldering League)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:16 pm 
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Posts: 147
no dog, i'm even one step further that cheap... i'm poor...
hehehe
:cry:
:?
:wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:09 am
Posts: 434
It is ironic that the club that Dog, 8A & nos are diss-ing & will not join is the largest single sponsor of sport climbing hardware in SA. Its a funny world.

Join... don't join ...what ever. But please remember that none of the members are paid & what ever they do right is a bonus. And probrably at some cost(time, cash, resorces)to themselves. What can be expected or demanded from unpaid volunteers?

\"condescending tone\" may just be a jab in the ribs, jest. Lots of climbers are not that good in large groups or with new people...in general


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:39 am 
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Posts: 73
ODC, you have my vote on the BBL (Limited to women of course, Marshall in a bikini would put me off climbing for my next 10 lives).
If you pull it off I may even join the MCSA :lol: Good Luck!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 11:27 pm
Posts: 124
Location: Kommetjie
Real Name: Michael Baleta
Thunder Boltz are cool

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:34 pm
Posts: 372
Location: Under my bed
Hey fanta, glad you didn't chop it in the end... seems someone got up it...

Image


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