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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:43 am 
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Posts: 25
I received word from a friend that the Arrow Final bolts have been chopped. I have also been accused of not holding a legal guiding certificate which is strange because I pulled mine out from my file this morning.

To my dismay the accreditation is in the process of currency as I am aware of its recent expiry. So to deal with the issue of my integrity being questioned I will not hesitate to lay charges for public deformation of character if this continues.

I am currently seeking direct permission from Sanparks and TMNP (Table Mountain National Parks) for permanent bolts at the site.

The Arrow Final bolts are in the interests of sharing climbing with the greater community, concurrently benefitting the interests of Tourism. The venture does not accord with a white privileged climbing elitist agenda. This being a stong case in point for permission.

If permission can be granted for bolt ladders and steel rungs on India Venster, I am confident that permission will be granted for Arrow Final bolts in due course once my case is made.

If permission is granted, I will make this public on the forum and a legal document will be attached accordingly. If consent is given further damage to the site will be prosecutable as vigilantism, vandalism and malicious damage to property.

Regards
Matt


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:00 am 
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Real Name: OneDog
Matt, I think you should stop confusing people asking a direct question with accusing you of anything.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:04 am 
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Matt, dude, please just use trad gear for that anchor. I will give you some gear myself if it will help. Please.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:24 am 
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Real Name: OneDog
mattbush wrote:
The venture does not accord with a white privileged climbing elitist agenda


I understand "elitism" to mean "rule by the elite", and "elite" to mean "the best of a class", same as you being an "elite sport climber".

This is exactly why you should not bolt this place. As far as I can tell the heavy-weights has made their disapproval clear with good reasons to back it. You continuing your lone crusade despite this appear very arrogant.

I'm going to add my voice all the way from behind the boerie curtain and say "no respect".


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:49 am 
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And here we all thought you don't read the forum, obviously you do. You have just established you're affinity for deception all by yourself. Add that in the application.

For the trad anchor...I'll donate:

1 x DMM wallnut #8 (the cable is a bit rusted, and I picked it up under a crag 5 years ago, but it's still good I'm sure)

2 x Wild Country slings

Anyone else? What are you throwing in Hector?

mattbush wrote:
If consent is given further damage to the site will be prosecutable as vigilantism, vandalism and malicious damage to property.

Your prosecution's success is about as likely as Hann's prosecution of your bolts.

mattbush wrote:
The Arrow Final bolts are in the interests of sharing climbing with the greater community, concurrently benefitting the interests of Tourism. The venture does not accord with a white privileged climbing elitist agenda. This being a stong case in point for permission.

I put it to you, Sir, that the Arrow Final bolts are in the interest of your clients sharing their disposable income with you, benefitting your revenue. The spending of disposable income on so-celled 'Extreme' activities such as being guided up a mountain does not accord with your purported noble intentions of sharing climbing with what you call the 'underprivileged' .

I am interested to know, do these clients pay for your guiding service or is this done pro bono publico?

Are you not white? Priviledged? Do you work a 40hour week to fund your climbing trips?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:03 am 
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Real Name: Jacques Breitenbach
Hey Mat you can sugar coat it as much as you like, but one day you will see that you are wrong. Your ego is not allowing yourself to see straight. You are now going to play the race card to get your way. Due to the sensitive nature of race, you may well get permission to bolt on the pretext that you are going to lead poor black kids up the mountain. (which I seriously doubt is your intention, but hey anything to get your bolts up and put this forum in its place?) Think hard before doing this, next someone else will want bolts on another ledge so that they too can lead underprivileged children up there and so on and so on. If you are really into helping disadvantaged children of colour why don't you help with Vannessa's out reach programs thru the MCSA. Have you even heard of her?. Good luck with your 'application' for the bolts, one day when you have moved far on from your egotistically fuelled 20's you will laugh at how naive you once were.
Regards
Jacques


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:12 am 
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Posts: 784
Location: Stellenbosch
Real Name: Nic Le Maitre
mattbush wrote:
If permission can be granted for bolt ladders and steel rungs on India Venster, I am confident that permission will be granted for Arrow Final bolts in due course once my case is made.


The chains and rungs on India Venster were put in place to reduce the number of accidents that had happened at that site. Eight deaths, 20 injured and 98 stuck/lost to date. I stand to be corrected but I do not think that there has been a death or injury at the site since the staples and chains were put in. All of these accidents could have been prevented by the use of a rope but as people persisted in using the route without ropes or knowing how to scramble safely the staples were put in at the request of SANParks. To my mind these protective measures are the same as the ladders in Skeleton and Nursery Gorge and are not to the detriment of the mountain; they have probably already saved more than one life and are therefore fully justified.

Your bolts on the other hand were placed by you in a trad climbing area, without permission, to make guiding your clients easier. There are more than enough placements for trad gear in the area where you placed the bolts to build an anchor capable of holding more weight than your ropes can stand. Your bolts were simply placed to make your job easier, that is not sufficient justification.

You are clearly a believer in the old adage that it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission, I believe that you will find forgiveness hard to come by.

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Nic


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:13 am 
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Yeah, oh come on, that BS about the "white privileged climbing elitist agenda" is just so much misdirection that you guys needn't answer that.

From my impartial :wink: point of view I have to wonder why this guy keeps clashing with the climbing establishment - is it that everyone is so unwelcoming of different viewpoints & SO very inflexible as to not allow him room to manouevre - or is he just on such a big ego trip that he doesn't care about ANYONE else's opinion.

Obviously now he HAS to defend himself, but one wonders why (in the light of other previous & recent conflict) he decided to push ahead with such a controversial move.

Maybe if we have a psychologist in our midst we could analyse this cry for help, for any form of attention?

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Last edited by Old Smelly on Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:15 am 
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Location: Jol-burg
Real Name: Craig de Villiers
Jeez Matt, you are being a real arse about this... as Pierre said, you clearly read the forums, and one of your posts in the other thread even stated you do not post on the forum.... Really? In an actual post on the forum, you stated that you don't post on the forum... :?: :?:

There are so many other ways to take climbing to the under-priveleged... UCT MSC do it ALL the time! They have a dedicated outreach program to introduce disadvantaged people to the sport of climbing, at the appropriate, easy to access, safe sport crags around the peninsula! If you really feel the need to take climbing to the community, why not do it at those (already bolted) crags...

Apparently your guiding certification only qualifies you to guide people on single pitch climbs... is this what you are trying to achieve by placing bolts, and using 140m static lines?? In order for you to be doing it 'legally' as a single pitch, according to your certification? Does your certificate permit you to guide paying clients on trad gear?? If this is the reason for the bolts, and static lines, why not just get the next level of certification, and bring your clients and yourself a greater level of satisfaction for their money!?

I have alot of respect for you as a climber, but you are seriously tainting it with this arrogant persistence on such an obviously out of bounds notion of yours....

Take a time out from the green stuff, and maybe it'll dawn on you, that what you trying to do is plain and simply WRONG!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:22 am 
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Real Name: Christo Snyman
Matt I have to admit I'm pretty dissapointed in you, you seem to only follow your own head and if something makes sense to you, it seems you feel that you are entitled to do whatever you like.

Your arguments makes absolutely no sense, you're angry about the bolts being chopped but at the same time admit that you did not have permission to place them (besides your own feeling of entitlement to do so). Then you go and use bolts placed legally and with permission to justify your own reasons, clearly being a strong climber makes you feel that you are above the rules and you do not have to comply to the same processes the rest of us have to follow.

You complain about defemation of character and give warnings of legal action, but then accuse the climbing community in general of having a white elitist agenda (I also seem to remember you compared us to fundamentalist religious nuts in a previous post). Seems like it if we do not agree to the opinion of the "great" Matt Bush then we are extremist who do not care one bit for our fellow countryman. That's a pretty weak argument and smacks of desperation. You seem to be going through your rebelious phase where the world and the community are clearly against you, most people managed to work this out of their system during their teens.

Matt you were in the wrong here and took the law in your own hands, if you followed proper procedures and got permission then the tone of post would have been drastically different. No doubt people would still disagree, but you would have followed the correct path in getting there.

Oh and comparing india venster, which is a hiking route with lots of traffic (and deaths) to your bolts on arrow final also makes no sense, it is almost as strong an argument as people against the "great" Matt Bush are obviously elitist white climbers (by the way be careful I see some defamation potential in your comments, I can think of at least a handful of people who commented on your post who does a heck of a lot in their communities on a regularly basis).

Your qualifications might be real but personally I do not like to climb with or let my friends/kids etc climb with guides who feel they have nothing to learn and that other respected proffesionals (i.e. David Valet) clearly do not know what they're talking about. You clearly know everything the rest of us still need to catch up.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:38 am 
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pierre.joubert wrote:
about as likely as Hann's prosecution of your bolts.


And here I thought I had a rock solid case.

The bolts are chopped.
I'm calm.

But the ego of some needs to be reined in.
He is embarrassing himself........and his sponsors.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:04 pm 
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Real Name: Warren Gans
I must agree with Hector on this: I haven't read a convincing argument for placing bolts rather than using trad placements in this case. I also find the argument that these bolts would open the mountain to the wider community flawed as they would still need climbing gear to access it- harnesses, ropes etc. If you want to open the mountain to the wider community why not volunteer to take people up the route in classic style, surely this would be a far more memorable and adventurous activity for them?

I hate to ask these things on such a public arena but Matt why do you put the cart before the horse like this: place bolts, then ask for permission to do so afterwards when you know this is wrong and will only cause you trouble? Could you not have come to this forum with this idea a month ago when you were contemplating it- this would allow everyone to have their say. On this forum you were so recently questioned that surely you would think to be open to the same forum regarding your next potentially questionable suggestion? Looking at the lines you are bolting elsewhere I was lead to believe you are trying to leave a legacy of bolting futuristic lines. Please don’t become the guy that built the future and harmed the past, but rather be the man that was open to other opinions, and abiding to the standards left by the climbers before you.

I think the most painful thing about all your actions this year is that it is you that’s doing them: a Wonderful, interesting person, philosophical and liked by all that spend any time with you, leaving only positive impressions. But on paper this isn’t following through Matt. Show us the Matt we love in person: the mentor to the youth of City Rock, the great company at the crag, the free giver of help to those that need it, and the tolerant of other peoples’ views. Please accept that some places are to be left as they are, and that others are more free to the current and future generations’ wills.

If rock is the face of immortality, then lets embrace it: love its features and wonder at its age.
Protect the things greater than Man out of respect for them, not for future generations or other shallow goals like legacy.
We mortals will die and be forgotten: don’t let those witnessing eyes rue our achievements, but rather be jealous of them.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:25 pm 
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Real Name: Henk Grobler
Matt this is not cool. You are allowing your ego to clutter your mind. Let it go, make peace, accept that you are clearly WRONG.

We do not want bolted stances on our trad venue please. You can guide for all I care, but do it with gear.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:46 pm 
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Real Name: Bruce Tomalin
You Capies were starting to depress me.
Then along comes Warren with the most mature, insightful, sensible, kind, beautiful
and well-written forum post I have ever read.
With youth like Warren around in our sport and country, there is more hope than I dreamed of.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:51 pm 
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Real Name: Justin Lawson
Yup, very well said Warren. Excellent post :thumleft:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:02 pm 
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Real Name: Raymond Kroger
Ja, I see it as a fairly simple solution that meets the tradition of the area. No need to attack each other! Everyone accusing Matt's so called "financial interest" is a bit uncalled for. A bit of false accusation flying around here based on character assumptions. Take the plank out of your own eyes people before you try to take out Matt's speck!

Matt, if you are reading this, I applaud your action in terms of bringing under-privilaged people to rock-climbing, but agree that this exercise could be done on natural placements. Mountain rescue manages to create solid anchors for specialised loads in a rescue scenario, and therefore I am sure your anchor could be done in the same way, no bolts needed.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:22 pm 
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Real Name: Rag Muffin
Big up to Warren G. Well said dude


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:37 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Grant Marinus
.... It takes less time to set a thing right than to try and explain and justify why you did it wrong in the first place ... take it as a learning experience, we all make mistakes and you have been afforded an extraordinary amount of latitude to set yours right - just do it!

Grant Marinus


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:09 pm 
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Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
This thread is a hoot!

All suport Matt. I'm not sure that it matters enough to do what you say you will do, but it is going to be intresting.

Sorry, the rest of you are being a bit closed minded.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:59 pm 
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mattbush wrote:
I have also been accused of not holding a legal guiding certificate which is strange because I pulled mine out from my file this morning.


I suggest everybody reads Ant comment on the featured article "MCSA response to Table Mountain Bolts"

http://www.climb.co.za/2011/10/mcsa-res ... /#comments

So if Matt is only registered to guide as stated. What is he DOING on Table Mountain to begin with, let alone bolting illegally?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:08 pm 
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Marshall1 wrote:
This thread is a hoot!

All suport Matt. I'm not sure that it matters enough to do what you say you will do, but it is going to be intresting.

Sorry, the rest of you are being a bit closed minded.

You're always butting in about TM matters while sitting in another city 770km away with no mountain in sight.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:45 pm 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
Haha Spike

We keep hearing that TM is the center of all climbing in SA...maybe you are too close & lack perspective of distance.

Thats the Forum. We all get to have our say.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:19 pm 
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I'm a bit rusty on that stances protection, but would it be possible to put a chain around a chockstone to protect the stance? This might be a good idea?

Getting rid of all the loose rubble on that ledge would be great. Mmm, not sure if you would need consensus for that though ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:04 pm 
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No More loose rubble sounds good goo :-)

But, before you head up there with a broom.
Perhaps, you should consult some folks as to the best way to do it.
So that all those lower ledges aren’t sprayed with looseness.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:57 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
This is all bizarre. And great theatre.

I find the thread at least as entertaining as any soap opera on TV that I have ever watched.

Matt you say
Quote:
If permission is granted, I will make this public on the forum and a legal document will be attached accordingly. If consent is given further damage to the site will be prosecutable as vigilantism, vandalism and malicious damage to property


Matt, have you not made yourself "prosecutable as (vigilantism), vandalism and malicious damage to property". by putting in the bolts in the first place? You damaged the site by placing the bolts, and - if you get permission - you are going to lay charges against someone else for removing the bolts to restore the site to the way it was before you placed them?

"vandalism and malicious damage to property" is a criminal act that it seems to me you may have committed by your assertion? Not that I or anyone else I know would prosecute you for it. Yet you threaten the community at large?

Read Warren's post and take heed. The course you are taking is clearly destructive. I have not read a single post that supports what you have done, why you did it and what you intend to do now.

You are bent on alienating a large body of climbers who hold sacred the ethic and culture and style of climbing in the context of the Ledge and TM in general. You have played the "elitist" card and the "race" card for a process that is, by any rational analysis, a self serving and commercial process.

You have likened your detractors to religious fundamentalists.

What more?

The Wiki definition of Defamation includes:
Quote:
is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed
.

Nobody on this forum is saying anything that is false that is giving you "negative image". You are doing that all on your own.

I learned a long time ago, not to pick battles I cannot win. I try teach my kids that too. It is time you learned this.

Matt if you do not I reckon your future is in deep trouble.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:20 pm 
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Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
"Matt if you do not I reckon your future is in deep trouble."

Snort, with all respect, this is taking theater to a new level.

Matt, your future is bright & sunny. If you even remember this episode, you will look back & laugh.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:29 am 
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Hey Justin,

Any way one can "Unsubscribe" from Marshall's posts?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:22 am 
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Location: Rustenburg
Real Name: Marc Dewrance
This is funny:
Quote:
I have also been accused of not holding a legal guiding certificate which is strange because I pulled mine out from my file this morning.

and then:
Quote:
I am aware of its recent expiry


And now you're in the process of getting your accreditation up to date!
Perhaps you should say thanks for pointing out that your certificate had expired in stead of threatening legal action for defamation of character. Can't sue for something thats true! :jocolor:
Perhaps this chap has saved YOU from legal action for guiding illegally...

Suck it up and move on!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:42 am 
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Well said Snort, 100% in agreement.
Fortunately he can afford to do nothing as daddy still looks after him, he would be unemployable in any industry with an attitide like his.
Marshal, eish ?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:51 am 
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Location: Pretoria / Johannesburg
Real Name: Andrew Blanche
I am sorry - did I miss something? why are we even debating the moral and ethical questions of bolting on TM? There is existing legislation that says "no"... As for being a Guide, you should know this and should be seen to do the right thing, Esp when representing the sport to the public at a professional level. It is actions like this that turns landowners agains the climbing community and bings our access rights into question. You suck.


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