Llandudno Slackline Destroyed

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Marshall1
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Re: Llududno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Marshall1 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:33 pm

Replace the bolt if it matters. Asking for permission means that someone can say no... after a NO, the consequences become greater. Don't make life so complicated. Ball up & do it....quietly (mouth shut) when nobody is looking. Nobody(even Greg) really cares about small shit like this. Fake permission if they do... "a guy in a white bakkie, he said his name was Piet Fourie, said it was ok" or blame a German called Fritz...if it is after the fact. The less said the better. This is a drop of piss in a fast flowing river.

I'm not-pro slackers, they are lank givi, but slacking is a ligitimate use of public space & fun to some. Lets not stand in the way of other peoples fun.

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ScottS
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Re: Llududno Slackline Destroyed

Post by ScottS » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:02 pm

Marshall1 wrote:they are lank givi
What's "givi" ? Shot boet.
At the chaaaaains boet!!

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Justin
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Re: Llududno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Justin » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:56 pm

I thought it might be interesting to post these pics from Venice Beach, Santa Monica in L.A.
A couple of hundred meters before Muscle Beach (where Arnie used to work out).
Slacklines are accommodated for, there is a concrete pathway all along the beach. The beach of course is way bigger than Llandudno.

Image
Above: Slacklining - This guy had just completed his MBA and was sitting out the recession.

Image
Above: Me climbing on the ropes at the beach (it was surprising to see big strong (looking) guys unable to get very far up).

Image
Above: Swing set on the beach - would LOVE to have one of these in SA, lots of fun and great work out :thumleft:
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XMod
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Re: Llududno Slackline Destroyed

Post by XMod » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:42 pm

What next? Hmm most likely nothing knowing Cape Town! :)
Derek is wrong, I do care about this stuff, otherwise I wouldnt bother writing about and getting in ppls faces over something seemingly minor. I also think Llandudno is out of the city enough and beautiful enough that we should want to protect it as far as is possible - and that includes not placing mechanical bolts wherever we feel like!

That said Im probably unlikely to blow a hundred rands driving there through a toll road to chop the stupid things - this is Cape Town and Im lazy. What the slackers should do is to take a triangular needle file (tiny thing - a thread cutter will also work- easier) and very carefully repair the threads so that a nut will still turn onto the bolt. Its utterly pointless (excuse the pun) having a useless sharp steel stud sticking out of a piece of rock waiting to impregnate some hapless beachgoer! Once you have repaired the thread replace the hanger, tighten the nut securely then put a FAT blob of silicone over the whole shebang. The silicone will stop ppl getting hurt by sitting on the thing and will help protect the threads from corrosion. Unfortunately filing or recutting the thread damages the surface of the bolt creating perfect crevices for corrosion to set in. Put some sand on the wet silicone to camouflage the bolt to some extent.

Justin the facilities you show are obviously at a very built-up and developed beach area, something Llandudno is most definitely not. If this sort of istallation had been done on Camps Bay beach I would probably not bat an eyelid, in that context it might be considered an appropriate addition to the beach facilities. Facilities that are thankfully (conspicuously) lacking on Llandudno and further south. Honestly whoever the Matt is who placed these things, he needs some serious instruction in appreciating Ma Nature and using commonsense to curb his trigger-happy fingers! If anyone is stupid enough to place any of these bolts at beaches further south such as Noordhoek or Mistys I will personally hunt them down, force them to remove the bolts, repair the rock and then I will break their tiny stoopid little fingers right off!!! :evil: :twisted: Who the F-k brings a drill to the beach anyway??????

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Not
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Re: Llududno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Not » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:05 pm

I use Llandudno beach a lot and I have seen someone stand on the stud - not nice. I personally feel the whole thing was better then there was a hanger on the bolt so that it was more obvious.

I am more than happy to take a die and re thread the bolt - if there is a desire for me to do so. I don't slackline - but do have access to the correct tools for the job. My main concerns are that (A) the bolt will now have cut instead of rolled thread (i.e. more prone to SSC and other modes of failure) and (B) I'll waste my time only to have someone trash the bolt again.

I'm out of CT 'til Monday but can do it then if people want me to.

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Mark
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Re: Llududno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Mark » Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:54 pm

We used to play with a beach buggy on certain dunes, our tracks used to get washed away by the first rains and the vegetation was covering the dunes more and more every year so we werent stunting nature.

The dunes were out of everyones site, in fact you could only get there by foot. So no-one could see us and no-one had an issue with us. Then eventually the little town we stayed in started getting bigger and expanded its boundaries, so they found us on the dunes and chased us away because we were supposedly damaging nature.

They continued expanding and bulldozed the vegetation away, cut in roads, laid pipes and built houses where we used to play,no one had an issue with this.

Beach buggy = bad for nature... houses and roads = good for nature... not a consistent argument. People are okay with the accepted norm, but if you are doing something unusual and having fun it must be stopped.

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Re: Llududno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Justin » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:45 am

Went past Llandudno the other day and the bolts have been 'properly' chopped.
Doubtful anyone will notice them.
See pics below:
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Chris F
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Re: Llududno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Chris F » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:56 pm

Justin wrote:2) Remove the bolts with much care and place Titanium glue-ins (same holes) & hope they don' get chopped again
3) Place a hanger onto the stud and forcefully wrench the nut on (with Locktight glue)
Before considering either of these, I reckon the thread could be fixed using an appropriate die set. It's not rocket science, as anyone who has done a machine shop apprenticeship will tell you.

If anyone doesn't want them there, no matter what you replace them with they will be removed.

I personally think it's a daft idea to place them in the first place, but once the damage is done any more drilling and dicking with them will just make matters worse.

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Re: Llududno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Not » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:06 pm

I offered to do just that last year, but no one took me up on my offer.

Regardless, the bolts now seem to be flush with the surface of the rock. Issue gone.

I see there are semi-permanent sports fixtures (volleyball nets etc) at Camps Bay beach - maybe one could get the people who organised that to put two posts up that one could set up a slackline on?
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Re: Llududno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Warren G » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:51 am

Personally i think there are 2 practical solutions:

Removable systems
this might sound a little crazy but one of the things Slackline-Tools sent me was 2 big augers (screws) which when screwed deep enough into the ground will hold a slackline happily the line then goes over 2 A Frames. the 2 screws they sent me are ineffective in RSA beach sand as they are only 0.5m long, but apparently at 1m deep they should be fine. I am going to look into having several sets made and distributing them to slackers that regularly use our beaches.

The beauty of this system is you aren't restricted to physical features of the beach, and so can be more discrete.

Non-invasive "temporary" solutions

the second practical solution- which ii am doubtful of- is submerging a plank or bag of sand 1meter into the sand, then leaving a leash on the surface. this then goes over the A frames etc. the reason for my concern for this system is practical: the leashes can easily get hidden by the shifting sand, or cut by other beach users. also it leaves something on the beach, which might be considered an eye sore to other users.
yes, this system is similar to the two pole solution, but as it is less invasive perhaps it will cause less problem for us i the future. the main feature here is convenience and price

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Re: Llandudno Slackline Destroyed

Post by islack » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:24 am

Hi, I'm new to slacklining and found this whole thread extremely interesting.

I'm from Durban and we don't have any boulders on our main beaches but I would never dream of drilling into the Bluff outcrops and they are nowhere as amazing as the Llandudno boulders.

I did a bit of research and came across this video from Frankie Najera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h7g4ymyJx8

Warren G talks about the dead mans anchor as a permanent feature (which I believe would look worse than the bolts in rocks), that system is actually meant to be removed after each session so you don't loose planks in the sand and get your lines cut by irate millionaires.
I built some of these (admittedly quite roughly and far cruder than Frankie's) and they work a treat.
This does mean you'll have to accept that you spend 30 minutes digging some holes and then clear up after yourself but this way you get to keep all your gear and your activity doesn't affect others who are there for their idea of serenity, whatever that may be.
I understand and appreciate the convenience of clipping in and slacking in minutes but not everything in life has to be so McDonalds :pukel:

I'm currently applying to Durban City to plant some gumpoles on the main beach near the volley ball nets much like this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXet280IwQU (deity bless youtube). A part of the application is a survey among beach going public on their reaction to big sticks in their sand as we ALL have equal right to the beach.
If anyone is interested, I'll post the results of this.

Thanks
Paul.

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Re: Llandudno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Warren G » Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:58 am

Hi Paul

As you have read the thread you will know that I didn't place or sanction the bolts at Llandudno, and we were in the process of discussing various options available to us then they were placed. The bolts were placed and we moved from there. Public spaces demand correct procedures, and thought as to how not to impact on other users. Fortunately for you there are several permanent artificial anchors on your beaches that will lesson the impact of a slackline anchor- Piers etc- and I can't see the Golden Mile presenting the same opposition as the Golden elite of Llandudno.

It seems laymen don't like going through official procedures on things, and then get surprised when their newly-implemented idea is rejected by others. This seems to be a common theme in the climbing community.

I will be in Durban at the end of September, beginning of October as I am from there, I am short for time but if you are keen I would be happy to meet.
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Re: Llandudno Slackline Destroyed

Post by BAbycoat » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:42 pm

Picking up on Warren's idea of removable systems:

(1) Fixe make removable bolts: http://www.fixehardware.com/triplex_3-p ... e_bolt.htm
Put some in your slackline kit and remove when you pack up. I doubt anyone will notice, let alone complain about two random 12mm holes.

Go for the 55mm version - I've had problems removing the 75mm version. And inserting a washer behind the flange before inserting makes removal easier. Obtained locally (does anyone distribute Fixe?), or from mtntools.com .

(2) Use a glue-in bolt (without glue!). 10mm steel in a 10mm hole fits remarkably snugly, gives remarkable radial (i.e. shear) strength, but still removes with a reasonable amoutn of axial (i.e. pull-out) force. I'd suggest the Bolt-Products GPS10-140A2 (http://www.bolt-products.com/ProtectionBolts.htm, though Jim can make longer on request). I've happily abseiled on this setup when I've run out of glue.

Both solutions necessitate a blow-tube to remove sand deposited by wind (and errant toddlers!) prior to set-up.

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Re: Llandudno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Warren G » Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:54 pm

I think the short answer here is that Durban and Llandudno will have two separate systems that make sense for the location. to be honest i think Llandudno is a pretty poor place for a slackline as it is so far out of town, and if you are going to head out there to slackline you should be willing to temporarily place a dead anchor, but that is just me.

The ideal slackline anchor is a tree/post with a rope/tree protector. Bolts damage biners and rust, and removable bolts are inappropriate for the job at hand, due to access to them. Paul, I hope you can convince the municipality to sink some poles in, hopefully the debate comes down to location and distance apart.
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Justin
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Re: Llandudno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Justin » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:06 pm

See below an article/review on removable bolts + another forum thread:

- RBs – a useful addition to your trad-rack
- Removable bolts are actually round slider nuts
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islack
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Re: Llandudno Slackline Destroyed

Post by islack » Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:39 pm

@Warren G, I think I did understand your point of view from your comments, I trust it didn't seem like I picked you out or anything.

I fully agree that Durban beach and Llandudno are worlds apart but I totally disagree with it being a poor place to slack line. I surfed there many years ago, its an amazing setting :)

Warren, we've just started setting up a slack community in Durban and would really like to meet with you and anyone else in SA for that matter who wants to set up an extended network and make some new friends in other cities.

I am however interested in learning new techniques for fixing my line and I don't want to hijack this thread so if anyones in our sleepy Durban city feel free to email me on paulfig@rocketmail.com and we'll meet up for a slack session.

Regarding removable fixing bolts, I'm in the architectural industry, I'll chat to some guys who do coring for us. They use removable rawl/expanding bolts to secure their extremely heavy and powerful coring drills and then unbolt and remove the shaft when they're done. I'll see if they're not too expensive and easily available and post on here if so. If the holes are hidden in cracksof rocks/boulders .........but only on averagely attractive beaches ;) .....I reckon they would be almost invisible.

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Re: Llandudno Slackline Destroyed

Post by islack » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:39 pm

Further to my comment regarding how coring companies fix their machines, its generally the Hilti HSA M10x180 expanding stud anchor. These come in boxes at R1260 for 25 of them (about R50 each) which is substantially cheaper than the $55 each for the pro climbing systems, but I obviously wouldn't recommend these for high line or climbing as they're not designed for this purpose. You'll need to add 2 washers to keep the line from slipping off but you can get a pack of fender washers for about R30 and they'll do the trick for the weekend hacker. When you're done, undo the nut, grip the threaded bar with locking pliers and twist it out of the expanding sleeve buried in the hole. If you don't damage the sleeve you can reuse it later.

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Re: Llandudno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Warren G » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:55 pm

But again some kind of pillar would be a better solution as slackliners are kited out for trees etc.
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Re: Llandudno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:16 pm

Use pickets or deadmen, they are light weight, easy to remove and don't require any kind of drilling into rocks or other permanent changes to the beach/surroundings. Take the line over a box or something similar and voila, a slackline.
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Re: Llandudno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Andy » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:59 am

i am slowly getting together a highline rig.

in lots of highline videos on you-tube the people place bolts and then equalize them with spansets.

now what are the ethics and rules for high lining in SA? would i be allowed to place bolts if i wanted to rig a highline? i am guessing the answer is no if it is within any of the national parks, like Table Mountain or places like echo valley.

so what are the other options? is wrapping a spanset around a piece of rock the best idea or can you safely tension a line off trad gear, and how many trad placements do you have to make?

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Llandudno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:58 am

There is no simple answer to this question.

Firstly, no bolts unless you have express permission to place them. All the land and rock in SA belongs to someone so you WILL have to ask for permission.

Secondly, rigging highlines is an incredibly complex and risky business. For a good highline, you want it as flat and as tight as possible, this increases the force on your anchors enormously. The longer the highline the worse this is. The force on your anchors is controlled by the critical angle (the angle made in the highline with you at the center of the of it). The closer this angle is to 180 degrees (flat) the greater the force on your anchors.
critical angle.jpg
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So for an 80kg person, (that's a downward force of 800N) on a highline with a critical angle of 170 degrees, the anchors at each end are carrying a force of 800 x 5.75 = 4600N. That's no so bad right? Trad gear is rated to well over that isn't it? A blue BD camalot is rated to 12kN or 12 000N almost 3 times our 4600N force. So it's safe right?
No, not really. For two reasons:

1) That 12kN is the breaking strain of the CAM and not the placement. They test it attached to a solid steel post and not in rock. Even in an ideal placement, in good rock I would not rate that cam at 12kN. A rule of thumb is that a good cam placement or a well placed large nut (>size 6) is probably about 5kN.

2) Dynamic events: Everything that we have spoken of up till now is concerned with static loads, i.e. you are standing still at the center of the span. However you aren't going to be standing still are you? You will be bouncing and may even fall off the line. The force required to stop your fall (particularly if you use a sling as a lanyard) can be very high, generally in the region of 2-3 times the static force.

Now things don't look quite so rosy anymore do they?

But of course you aren't going to put in only one placement per anchor are you? Only an idiot would do that. So we build a huge anchor, use masses of gear and arrive at something that could easily take 30kN or 3 TONNES of force. That should be strong enough now, surely? Yes it is but there is something else. The anchor is now very strong but the rest of the system may not be so strong. The carabiners you use may only be rated to 22kN. So now the whole system is only worth 22kN not 30kN. There is something else, the line itself. Conventional tape is generally rated to around 22kN but that is unknotted and unbent. Knotting or putting small diameter bends (like with a line locker) into tape can reduce its strength by up to 50% for the worst ones. So now we have a system where the weakest point is the line you are walking with a potential rating of only 11kN...

So to answer your question, yes it is possible to rig highlines using trad gear. But without experience in evaluating placements, critical angles and weakest links it can be incredibly dangerous. So if you do decide to go and do this, please take someone along who has experience of rigging these systems, tell someone where you are going, what you plan to do and when you are going to be back.

Lastly, if you do rig a highline over somewhere, please take it all down when you are done. The lines are very difficult to see from a helicopter and are incredibly dangerous should we fly into one. We had a near miss a year or two ago.
Happy climbing
Nic

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Re: Llandudno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Andy » Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:47 pm

Thanks Nic

i hope i can rig some cool line soon ... once i get enough gear.

:)
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Re: Llandudno Slackline Destroyed

Post by Warren G » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:30 pm

Before doing the Frank.net highline in Cape Town the stunt crew wanted to know what forces we were looking at, and so we went to a park and set up a range of different length lines and measured the tension. The longest we tested was about 70m, and its force ranged from 8.5kn-9.5kn, depending where I was and what I was doing on the line. It seems the rule of thumb for forces is 10m=1.2kn. What was interesting was that when I fell on the line the numbers didn't spike nearly as much as we supposed, and we attribute that to the line stretch distributing the force over time. Most of the force was placed in the tensioning, rather than the walking- static load was about 7.5kn on the line.

Getting back to the topic a little (that is the poached one, rather than the Llandudno one), I detest using trad hardware for highlines, and much much prefer slings: cheaper, more versatile, lighter etc. Have I placed a bolt for highlines? Yes, but only if I could hide them, if it was absolutely necessary AND I if had permission to do so. With this in mind I slightly regret placing the southern bolt on the Chapmans Peak line, as it isn't necessary thanks to the natural protection.
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