Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Let everyone know about any suspect/dodgy/misplaced bolts to be renewed or avoided.
Dark Horse
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Dark Horse » Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:42 pm

Being in a steel container the size of you bathroom 24 hours a day for a month gives me time to think :lol: or perhaps over think..

I fear Matt has that anger of the youth. Petulant, defiant and giving everyone the middle finger. The problem is I have the rage of middle age. ha ha ha...or I could just be mad. There is lots to be raging about, all my failed dreams etc etc so I think I'll just take it out on Matt and those bolts...

Seriously though even though there is litter everywhere that doesn't make it right to just not give a *bleep* and litter.
Up on the cliffs of Table Mountain it's like our last bit of sanctuary away from all the crime, traffic, unpaid bills and general city madness. Let's respect history, tradition and try keep it a special place.

Well I'm not giving up without a fight...

ClimbRat
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by ClimbRat » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:34 pm

Never thought i'd say this , but no Snort , you are wrong about people not using ascension devices and shunts for climbing on TM. Its a practice thats been around for a long time and know of a couple good climbers around CT that use the fixed line method with and ascension device , shunt or both.I started using that technique after climbing with a bunch of Austrians at Wolfberg.After learning more about it from friends in the industry of Rope Access , i went and tried it on the right lower butress of TM. After rigging a safe system and abbed in i started climbing with a Gri-Gri and Shunt as back-up.After taking some deliberate falls and weighting the shunt line with a few rocks , i found the system flawless. The system is safe and is made for a much easier rescue than in the traditional sense.In my opinion he would pass the Bolam test.Check out the Petzl gear guide 2011/2012 on all the techniques. Just what i think.Interesting to climb like that , without back ups a little more dodge but the gri-gri never failed me.I dont think sponsorship should get involved , good example is when Chris Sharma tested positive for THC at the bouldering world cup in 2006 after he WON. His tilte got stripped .Sponsorship never got involved though and kept on supporting him.These guys work hard to get a sponsorship , who are we to take that away from him?

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Hann
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Hann » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:40 pm

To be fair and transparrent I will list my course of action below.
I am open to debate should somebody feel I'm out of line or a 'fruitcake', as eloquently stated by climb rat

1) The MCSA is already aware of this,
2) I will find out who the sponsors are of Matt and approach them directly asking them to revoke sponsorship, (Bluewater and Evolve, if not mistaken). And yes ClimbRat, it is our responsibility to take these steps if an individual breaks these type of rules.
3) find out if he is registered as a mountain guide, and report this incident the the body where he is registered.
4) if still in place, I will chop the bolts come November.
5) I have been advised by the MCSA NOT to report Matt to SANpark for legal action, as they may revoke all bolting privileges if this becomes known to them.

Anger of youth you say?
It is no excuse.

This is an embarrassment...

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:21 pm

Seriously "ClimbRat" who are you?

Do you only exist to defend the indefensible actions of someone who seems not to care about prevailing ethics but simply does what he likes when he likes?

On sponsors revoking sponsorships of professional athletes, I haven't seen Tiger Woods on too many Nike ads lately...
Happy climbing
Nic

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Justin
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Justin » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:00 pm

ClimbRat wrote:Its a practice thats been around for a long time and know of a couple good climbers around CT that use the fixed line method with and ascension device, shunt or both.

I found the system flawless. The system is safe and is made for a much easier rescue than in the traditional sense.
I reckon there could be a flaw or two with the system (described by Snort via Matt).
One fault is: we are talking about clients here. Even though the client is on a redundant system they still have the opportunity to kill themselves (e.g. if the client were to grab both devices at the same time). They are not trained, nor have the know how to use said devices.

As below, Petzl also state the following on their website with regard to using a GRiGRI (similar warnings go with most climbing gear).
Image
GRIGRI EXPERIENCE
ClimbRat wrote:I dont think sponsorship should get involved
Edit: I initially said I would like to hear from his sponsors. Thinking about it more, his sponsors have nothing to do with his actions.
ClimbRat wrote:TM started getting bolts a long time ago... that is double standard.
Yes it did, bolts have been used for climbing, abseiling and to fasten the cable way down. However, when used for climbing, my understanding is that bolts were placed after much thought and consideration. They have also been away from popular areas.
Validating bolts on TM is tricky business.

Hilton says in his post: Table Mountain Bolting Policy
"Table Mountain has had holes drilled and bolts placed before this recent incident. If I had the equipment I would probably have placed a bolt in a route called Cool Cat that I opened in 1978. Fortunately I didn't, and with the RPs of today the route is safe with natural gear."
:idea: Food for thought.
Hann wrote:I have been advised by the MCSA NOT to report Matt to SANpark for legal action, as they may revoke all bolting privileges if this becomes known to them.
We're on tricky ground here. We need to govern ourselves or risk being governed by an authority who do not have climbing at heart.

My main question to Matt (maybe someone can pass it on at Cityrock): His system could have been setup using trad gear. Why did he think bolts were necessary :?:
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henkg
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by henkg » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:42 pm

What Dark Horse wrote ...
Dark Horse wrote:@Matt

But whether you are the shit hot best climber in the country doesn't change anything in my eyes... A wanker stays a wanker.
Is true. (maybe I should write this in a pm to him?)

No respekt Matt. (hope your sponsors read this!)
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by mattbush » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:48 pm

It appears as if there is no difference between the emotively persuaded climbers on this forum and extreme religious fundamentalists who follow blind convictions.

Religious fundamentalism denies the right to individual freedom. Fundamentalism claims ownership of the one and only way to do things and condemns those who do things differently. This is contrary to democratic principles equality and the bill of human rights.

Fundamentalism is a total dogmatic conviction of correctness. In climbing terms this relates to the idea that there is one way of climbing and that this one way is the only true correct way. This is a rather archaic way of thinking considering the sheer diversity of people in this world.

Climbing Fundamentalism is another term for Climbing Conservatism which promotes the maintenance of traditional institutions and supports, at the most, only minimal and gradual change.

Conservatives often seek to preserve things as they are, emphasizing values of stability and continuity with the past while suppressing progressive movements aimed at social transformation and equality.

Take for example the Jewish fundamentalists and the extremists of Hamas.

• Both are against any compromise with the other side.
• Both want the entire land of Palestine for their group.
• Both are entirely sure of their position.
• Both advocate and sometimes use violence to achieve their ends.
• Both are nationalistic.
• Both are intolerant of dissent within their group.
• Both demonize the other side, so that the members of Hamas, as viewed by the Israeli
fundamentalists, sometimes sound exactly like the Israeli fundamentalists as viewed by Hamas.

Here are a few questions to ponder…

1.Are you a climbing fundamentalist?

2. Do you judge people who place bolts whilst enjoying the use of them?

3. Is there one true way of climbing?

3. Do you own this way?

4.Is climbing only for those who are privileged?

5.Do you own the mountain?

6.Do you suppress novel ideas and opinions?

7.Are you closed minded to others?

8.Do you regard your method of climbing as superior to others?

9.Do you suffer from delusions of grandeur?

10. Do you make the rules for others and judge others according to your own rules?

If you have said yes to one or more of these questions you are probably taking climbing too seriously. At the end of the day it’s not worth becoming a Fundamentalist about and certainly not worth making mountains out of molehills and flying planes into them.

We are living in a democracy not an autocracy. Although some of you take it upon yourself to be the moral guardians of others do not worry we have law to protect the rights of individuals from the transgressions of others.

In the eyes of a democratic law we are all equal, which brings me to the closing point as made in my previous post:

“If there is a law that prohibits bolting on Table Mountain then all bolts placed after this law ought to be removed regardless of MCSA-ARF bolting sanctions.

I will gladly remove my bolts if this law stands and I will gladly assist setting the Precedent of a ‘Bolt Free Table Mountain.’

Climb, Smile and Be Happy!

Dark Horse
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Dark Horse » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:37 am

2 x stainless bolts 130 rand

1 x tube of epoxy glue 85 rand

140 meters of static line 1586 rand

A guide tour up arrow final 500 rand

Matt's last post.... Just priceless

ClimbRat
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by ClimbRat » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:52 am

I am Rut ,short for Rutger. I was not defending anyone as you can see. Hilton is taking charge of bringing a public policy forward , and i commend him for doing that . That is all i think was needed.
Dark Horse , good one!!!.
He is all for a policy it seems though and makes a good argument.
Read it without the sarcastic bits

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Hann
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Hann » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:17 am

Matt,

I am stunned.

The outcome of the bolts you placed are still to be established.

But let my try and explain something by way of analogy:

1) Sex within the marriage is seen by all religious institutions, law and society as good and necessary.

2) Extramarital sex, ie cheating of your spouse, is seen by most as unethical but is not 
illegal.

3) Premarital sex between two adults are frowned upon by most religious, but is generally accepted as fine.

4) Rape is punishable by law.

5) Statetorial rape is also punishable by law.

- Now you can argue that the lady has had sex with all your friends and that she was leading you on. But if she did not consent, the it is rape.
- You can also argue that the 15year old girl dressed and acted like a 21 year old, and that she seduced you. But if she is 15, it is rape.

Now please tell me you see the difference.

Further,
Who are your sponsors?
What is you guide registration number?

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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by joshpickering » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:38 am

Matt, I don't think the argument is about whether you've sinned against the trad-climbers "ten commandments", it is about placing bolts without the correct permission, something that jeopardizes access for the whole climbing community. Whether the group that is trying to lynch you are fundamentalist nutters or not, their point is still valid and a lynching probably inevitable.
Religious freedom doesn't allow people to go beyond the law of the country (well, it shouldn't) and it's the same here. You can climb in any style you like without (much) judgement, but that doesn't mean you can do whatever you like. Your guiding system may very well be fine (if not a bit lame) but placing bolts without permission is not.
Will someone chop these things already! (sorry, I'm in KZN or I'd offer to do it myself)

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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Edge » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:56 am

Matt, if you could get off the soapbox for a minute and actually answer the question.......
Why not use traditional gear??

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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by SNORT » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:07 am

Answers:


1.Are you a climbing fundamentalist? Absolutely, at Rocklands I boulder, at CityROCK I top rope and lead climb, In Chamonix I bolt clip in the valley and use ice axes and crampons on the ice peaks, at the Hole I clip bolts and on TM I climb with my buddies with 2 ropes and trad gear bottom up and occasionally, after due consideration leave a fixed piece of trad gear if considered absolutely necessary. In 25 years of climbing on the ledge I have left 4 nuts, 1 peg and two lower of threaded slings. I have done at least 10 first ascents.

I am not Jewish or Islamic but I cover my head when I happen to be in a synagogue or mosque and follow other dress codes when called for. It is all about context


2. Do you judge people who place bolts whilst enjoying the use of them? Indeed I judge people if the bolts are placed badly or their motivations are wrong

3. Is there one true way of climbing? In context there is

3. Do you own this way? See answer to 1 context

4.Is climbing only for those who are privileged? Sure if soccer is for the privileged too. What makes you privileged to do Arrow final without bolts? Do you have to have bolts and fixed lines and a paid guide to do Arrow. Only the privileged can afford it then

5.Do you own the mountain? As a citizen I do as much as you

6.Do you suppress novel ideas and opinions?I am an owner of CityROCK an indoor climbing facility where you train. Pretty novel I would think

7.Are you closed minded to others?See answer to 6

8.Do you regard your method of climbing as superior to others?See answer to 1.

9.Do you suffer from delusions of grandeur?Ask yourself that question

10. Do you make the rules for others and judge others according to your own rules?Of course I do. That's what parents do. And I hold my kids accountable when they break those rules. And they get fired from my business if they break the rules

Matt what you are doing is breaking the rules. Rules that every single participant in this forum agree to.
Nothing you are doing is adding to the experience of doing Arrow. You are killing the adventure by commodotizing climbing. You are destroying the experience of what it represents and you are doing it for money.


Everything you write is ethereal BS as it is so out of context. Your actions suggest either extreme naivety or extreme arrogance. If you were 18 years old I could consider it be naivety but as you are 27.......

I suggest you read Marc Twight's article "Distant" written in 1994:

I’m looking through my old articles for the adjectives and phrases I used to describe hard climbing. They’re so dated. Transparent. I actually believed that I could communicate to non-participants what it’s really like. I’m not certain of it now. I used to feel a paralyzing terror when I approached big routes in the mountains. Now I know how to do them. I know what to expect. Today, the sound of apprehension is a hard-drive and full-page photos in the European magazines, or revving engines, screeching rubber, and drive-by gunfire. Rocks fall. Helmets break. Ice-tool picks snap. Ropes are left behind after being cut over edges. And the harder the routes get, the bigger the packs are. The more difficult and dangerous they are, the harder it is to understand them, much less climb them. No video game can train you for it. It may well be a stupid activity, but just name one that isn’t stupid to someone.

There were no give-aways on the Charmoz. Belays were OK so we knew we’d never hit the ground. But the falls looked long and the pro wasn’t like it is on the ‘sport’ routes sprouting up all over the Mont Blanc Masif: bolts next to cracks, fixed stations. Homos put ‘em up. I don’t mean homosexuals, I mean homogenized people. I mean lame, bloodless snots without any moral character or respect for the environment or the fact that other, more capable people will come after them. Climbers who don’t understand the fact that homogenized climbs are forgotten by those who repeat them because they can be done without commitment. I can take sport climbing, but sport alpinism? The quickest way to kill adventure is to turn it into a commodity. And every time a European alpinist or French telepherique attendant shakes his finger at the size of my pack, I think of Martin Riggs proudly stating that, ‘There’re 15 in the clip, one up the pipe.’ An extra clip for the smart-ass puke who bolted the first seven pitches of the American Direct on the Dru and found sponsors for the project. An inspired gesture if ever saw one.


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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Dark Horse » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:20 am

@ Matt I know you are reading these posts so.

Please don't get me wrong I'm not saying you are a wanker I mean I don't even know you, what I meant is you're acting like one.

We've all made mistakes and most times it's not to late to change or undo them but Just for one second imagine what it would feel like if heaven forbid something happened and some one got hurt or killed due to these bolts you've placed? Could you live with that? Have you been taught how to place bolts correctly? Did you get the permission required? Have you had adequate training to safetly guide people? Aside from the serious nature of people's lives would you be happy with yourself if future generations of climbers access to the mountains we all love was jeopardized?

" The only perfect man God ever made was Jesus and look what that got him."

Ps we are down on weather so ... Pretty bored

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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by SNORT » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:21 am

To climbrat

Justin has given you part of the answer. You need training with this sort of thing. It is not for novices.

Fixed line climbing is extremely dangerous. There is always an edge over which the rope goes unless it is dead vertical or overhanging. I have opened and inspected many routes with a shunt and Grigri or Tre in the past. And it is very scary. I always tie the rope off to gear every 3 or 4 metres to stop it rubbing against edges. You can protect the rope with some hose pipe or other sleeve but there is always friction. Also climbing a route like Arrow is not dead straight so the rope will move from side to side. Static ropes may have less motion vertically but not sideways than dynamic ropes.

His bolts are placed very low on the face at the back of the ledge. It would be much safer to make the anchor above the pillar so the rope would make a lesser angle where it touches the ledge if you were to do this. The rope would also avoid much of the loose rock if placed much higher. If I were to do a long line rescue in that setting using those anchors would be completely inappropriate.

The whole concept and setup is amateurish and clearly lacks insight and experience and judgement.

It is an accident waiting to happen.

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Hann
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Hann » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:27 am

Charles, Robert,

As you are the owners of City Rock, and have publicly condemned the actions of Matt, I ask that you refuse Matt access to the CityRock gym until such time as this matter is settled.

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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by SNORT » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:41 am

No can do Hann,

He is a paying member. He has not broken any rules of the gym, or laws of the country as far as I know. At worst he fails the Bolam test in terms of the accepted ethics prevailing at the Ledge at present. I tried to fashion a nut placement 3 years ago and I still think it is a much better option than the alternatives. However, I failed the Bolam test then. And I mended my ways - reluctantly I might say.


Matt is a really nice guy. I really don't think he means any harm. He is certainly not a criminal

As I said:

"
The whole concept and setup is amateurish and clearly lacks insight and experience and judgement.

It is an accident waiting to happen."
With a bit of luck he will see that. And mend his ways.

He is apparently a professional guide and his modus operandi must be evaluated by his association. It is up to them to sanction him if his methods are not accepted and revoke his license. Littering Arrow with novices on fixed lines with auto-belays intuitively seems extremely dodgy. And if it were to be done then those anchors are in the wrong place.
Last edited by SNORT on Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Paul Goddard
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Paul Goddard » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:51 am

@ Matt, stop with all the philosophical reasoning and verbose crap. You are obviously quite a bright youngster but stop trying to defend what you have done behind paragraphs of nonsense. Its now bordering on desperate. None of us buy it.
Hats off to you for owning up in the 1st place, but now its time to accept that what you have done is selfish and stupid.
We will all get over it, and so will you, just stop trying to convince yourself and this forum you have done nothing wrong.
Matt take this one on the chin and lets move on.
@ Hann, gettting his sponsors to severe ties with him is extreme and not necassary, the penny will drop eventaully.

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Hann
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Hann » Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:18 am

@ Snort.
Fair enough, and thanks for your reply.

@ Paul.
Yes it is extreme.

If Matt chops his bolts and admits to the error of his ways I will lay this to rest, forgive and forget.

However,
If Matt continues his attitude and actions I have every intention of following through on my threats.

To be fair,
I do not know Matt and have spoken no more that 5 words to him on occasion at De Bos.
This is not a vendetta against him personally, but rather against his actions and to send a clear message to all climbers that bolting needs to be done in accordance to certain regulations/accepted standards.

Again for transparency:
I have already contacted South African Mountain Guides and have been advised to contact the Guide Registrar in Cape Town to report this incident.

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Scott
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Scott » Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:37 am

Hey site admin, I need a thumbs down button for Matt's post. get on it.

If someone finds out where he got his climbing guide accreditation please let us know so we can all choose if we want to call and complain. You just cant get a guiding license and reinvent the wheel.

If you guys think a few illegal bolts are a problem for the Cape Town climbing community try a dead "paying client" from a registered mountain guide and it could all be captured on video from a German tourist in the cable car.

As for his sponsors I dont think they need to get involved because of us on the forum but I do feel sorry for them as his actions and worse his further defense of his actions make him seem like someone you DONT want representing your brand.

Scott

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Hann
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Hann » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:26 am

If I understand correctly Matt did his accreditation with Adventure Qualifications Network cc
www.aqn.org.za

This organisation certifies only guiding skills, and not bolting practice.

As I know nothing of guiding standard I would suggest that, if warranted, somebody who does know about guiding contact Adventure Qualifications Network cc

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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Chris F » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:56 am

Nic Le Maitre wrote: On sponsors revoking sponsorships of professional athletes, I haven't seen Tiger Woods on too many Nike ads lately...
Patagonia sure as hell weren't happy with Dean Potter when he overstepped the line.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-ad ... Climb.html

All this debate about philosphies, reasons, ethics and justification feels like smoke screening.

The facts from where I stand seem pretty simple; unless the correct protocol is followed, bolting on TM is not allowed, and therefore these have to go.

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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Dewrance » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:22 pm

Seriously, has no-one chopped the bolts yet?

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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Justin » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:36 pm

It's the Cape, things take time here :jocolor:
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Justin
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Justin » Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:26 pm

And so comes the end of a very entertaining topic... from the post above I think it's safe to say everyone has said their bit :?:

Moving forward it would be good to focus on the Bolting Policy for Table Mountain.

Any objections if I lock this topic? If I don't hear anything I'll lock it down this evening.
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henkg
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by henkg » Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:34 pm

Why lock the thread???

The issue has not been settled, Matt continues to defend his actions. Until he agrees to the error of his ways why lock the thread?

@ Matt: you are childish. When I correct my children, first thing they do is blame it on someone/something else. Implying that the climbing community is backward is no different. You try to sound very intelligent and philosophical, but you are just the stereotype rebel.

Rather do some introspection. Relationships can only be mended once wrong doing has been confessed and forgiveness given (A bit of religious fanaticism if you like).
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

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Hann
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Hann » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:52 pm

I agree.

This should remain open until the bolts are chopped and Matt has agreed he was wrong.

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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Wayne73 » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:23 pm

Question: MCSA have asked that the incident not be reported to Sanparks, Why? This seems like an unethical request unless they are taking it upon themselves to report it.

I would be very supprised if Matt were to apologise as in his opinion his actions are correct, very much like his Israel/Hamas analogy where both sides think they are correct. So I think that Justin can close the thread as it is not going to progress as the majority here have reached a consenus. Could someone from the MCSA please pm an answer to my above question, thanks.
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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by tygereye » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:44 pm

IMHO this behaviour is cocky, ignorant, arrogant and, most of all, inconsiderate.
All of us have been guilty of these before (be it to more or lesser extents and in whatsoever context).
Higher respect is earned by being accountable for one's actions than shifting blame.

Perfectly reliable trad gear can be used for the same purpose.
There is no justification for placing those bolts.
They should be chopped asap.

The issue is not about fundamentalism, rebelliousness or charity.
We do not want to mess with access to this venue.

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Re: Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor

Post by Justin » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:47 pm

Wayne73 wrote:Question: MCSA have asked that the incident not be reported to Sanparks, Why?
Hi Wayne,

The MCSA did not say that Hann should not report the incident.
What they indicated was: By reporting the incident to SANParks, it could result in a ban of *all* bolts within the Park.
(Think Silvermine Crags, The Hole, The Mine, etc)
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