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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:24 am 
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Real Name: Justin Lawson
When you visit Waterworld, you will notice a few leaver biners and draws. Please leave this binners in place, they are either used to clean routes or someone is working a project.
Tx

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:47 pm 
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Real Name: Warren Gans
Maillons for leaver biners project draws? I hate reading this post Justin, makes me question people, but then I suppose that is a highly accessible crag.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:42 pm 
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Warren G wrote:
I hate reading this post Justin, makes me question people...


No, no... happy to report it's not what you think Warren. Nothing has gone AWOL, the leaver biner from Firestarter has moved next door to 'My Route Down by the River' (which I mistakenly (stupidly/hilariously) downclimbed the other day :)

No draws/biners have gone missing and the leaver biners are all still there +1 'cleaning biner that has been added to Firestarter now. There are a few draws on the hard(er) section of Twist and Crawl - My post was only to serve as a reminder :thumleft: (looking up from the bottom it does appear that many people have bailed!)

Although with my collection of 'lost' booty I am considering leaving draws on more popular routes with (tightened) mailons. Objections anyone?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:04 am 
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Real Name: Willem Boshoff
Stefan Zwanepoel left some draws on mailons at Waterworld; he immigrated to Canada before he had a chance to retrieve them. They are up for grabs as far as I know.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:31 am 
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Hmm treasure :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:15 am 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
Hi Justin, just make sure all leaver biners are steel biners and not aluminium. Aluminium and high grade/stainless steel in contact with each other undergo electrolytic corrosion at the expense of the aluminium. This is not so pronounced away from the coast but can happen extremely rapidly (like in a few weeks near the sea). My concern is one day someone will use the biner to retreat off a route and the biner will fail.

You can get steel wire gate biners relatively inexpensively either from climbing shops or use yachting ss biners such as those Ive installed as lower offs at Kalk Bay (see old thread on forum). The yachting biners would need to be attached with a maillon. All steep routes could do with one or two permanent biners to assist with cleaning the route.

I would caution against using your 'treasure trove' to perma-draw routes. You don't know the history of the gear, cant track the abuse it will take in-situ. Perma-draws look unsightly to other nature users and have been a point of contention at many locations. Lastly aluminium is not the ideal material for perma-draws, they should be steel and still need regular (yearly) maintenance and checking (lots of work).


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:38 am 
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Real Name: Warren Gans
Xmod was that just a long winded way of saying that you will take them for safe keeping??

Perma-draws are typically placed using Mailons, which are almost always steel. If no-one gets there before me I'd claim them :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:56 pm 
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I was referring to the rope end of the perma-draw, ie use steel biners not aluminium.

I have too many quickdraws to bother lifting perma-draws Warren :) Another point is perma-draws should have a heavy swaged cable instead of the nylon sling which just bombs out in the sun, finding someone who will guarantee the strength of swaging is not easy. Perma-draws are a nice thought but pretty ugly.

That said it would be rad to see some permanent leaverbiners to help with cleaning on very steep routes. The Raumer sport anchor biners are super wear resistant and have a small metal bar closing off an 'eye', if these were attached with a maillon to the hanger they wouldn't walk off to adjacent routes..... or Warrens gear locker :wink: .


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:00 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
Something like this:

Image

The biners are available separately for R100 compatible steel maillons as well.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:05 pm 
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what about this (also available with single wiregate) ... A316 glue-in to keep Andy happy :jocolor:
Attachment:
8mmbolt2krabs.jpg
8mmbolt2krabs.jpg [ 10.23 KiB | Viewed 657 times ]


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:14 pm 
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Location: Stellenbosch
Real Name: Nic Le Maitre
What's with this captive biner anchor craze? I really don't get it. They are more expensive than standard bolts, they clog the hangers so that you struggle to get your quick draws in, they encourage people to not use their own draws for top roping and when they wear out, what then? You're left with a useless and unsafe biner that has to be cut off.

Why not use the good old hangers with a maillon system that has worked so well in the past? Are climbers so lazy/cheap these days that they can't use use their own draws in the top anchors?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:09 pm 
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Nic the Raumer biners are replacable, you simply bend the wire catch out of the way. They are also made from r480 steel which is the same stuff the bull-hook of a construction crane is made from - ie: its f-ing bulletproof - way harder wearing than the ring type anchors that ARF is currently installing and actually R5 cheaper per unit (still expensive, but worth it). They are so tough it makes no difference if people top-rope through the anchors, that's what they are designed to handle. Lastly, and the main point here, you don't untie from the rope as there is no need to clean the anchor. Think about it, why in God's name would you want to undo your primary safety attachment when at the highest possible point on a route?? It makes absolutely no sense. Untying to clean anchors just opens up a whole field of possible f-k ups, even the most experienced climbers make errors (eg: Lynn Hill), why go there at all? I sincerely wish ARF would use these clip in anchors. The twin ring anchors are NOT sport anchors but are abseil anchors. The sport anchors all have biners (see the Raumer site).

In the case of placing them singly en route as an clip in point to aid in cleaning the route - so long as they are not placed at a desperate clip there is no problem slipping your draw in underneath the ring/maillon to clip the hanger/bolt eye. They are only necessary on long steep routes, but they make a huge difference to the effort required in cleaning (more power left for climbing :thumleft: ) and add safety as you wont swing out radically from the face.

The anchors pictured above are the yachting biners I mentioned. They are 316ss, unrated but flipping strong being made with 10mm diameter rod. They are cheap at R40 each but they will not wear nearly as well as the raumer biners. I would advise against setting them as shown in the pic above as, as Nic points out, you cannot replace them when they wear out. Seeing as 316ss is a relatively soft steel this something to consider. They are much better attached with maillons to a hanger or glue-in eye bolt.

Incidentally the Yachting stores also sell maillons with a 10mm diameter body. They are cheap at R30. Unrated but strong.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:21 am 
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Real Name: Nic Le Maitre
Ok, they didn't look replaceable to me, thanks for clearing that up.

FYI there are ways of threading the top chains without first untying, just need links big enough to thread a bight through.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:45 pm 
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Cool Nic, yes I know that method, works well with a big eye to thread although still a fiddle and time waster when you are pumped senseless. I would love to see clip-in anchors simply for the time saving factor (we often pop out to Silvermine for a 'quick-fix') alone even without the added safety of not untying (even with the 'thread a loop' method you still have to untie)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:32 am 
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Real Name: Justin Lawson
I have left a leaver draw on Firestarter for the purpose of cleaning. The draw is attached via a maillon.

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