Yellowwood Ethics Debate Part 2 (Rational Man's Edition)

New Areas. New routes. Retrobolting. Add-ons. Re-grading. etc.
stfu
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Yellowwood Ethics Debate Part 2 (Rational Man's Edition)

Postby stfu » Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:48 pm

Thank you for those of you who took the time to read my post and appreciate some of the points I was trying to make (whether you agreed with them or not). I wasn't planning a second post (and I assure this time that it will be devoid of profanities), but I would like to put to the climbing community (starting with this forum) the following proposal.

Considering we have no substantiative metric by which to gauge peoples stance on this issue I would like to create a survey that we can all (anonymously) partake in. I set out about creating one, but felt that I should not be accused of weighing the questions in any particular way. So here follows my proposed questions, to which I would like suggestions of amendments and additions.

1. In which province do you conduct the majority of your climbing
2. Rank your style of climbing in order of time spent participating in it (Trad, Bouldering, Sports)
3. State whether you strongly disagree, somewhat disagree, unsure, somewhat agree or strongly agree with the following statements.

Yellowwood should be a trad only venue
It is acceptable to bolt a belay station on a trad route
It is acceptable to bolt an abseil point on a trad route
It is acceptable to place a bolt on hard to protect sections of a trad route
It is acceptable to place a piece of fixed gear on hard to protect sections of a trad route
It is acceptable to chop bolts on a route where you are *not* the first ascensionist
It is acceptable to bolt an unopened route where it is legally allowed
Bolting should only be done to established safety standards
Bolted routes that do not conform to established safety standards should be chopped
New bolted routes should be put to a committee

I will take any reasonable suggestions (via this thread or PM) and would like to have the survey out for general consumption (on a web site) by the end of the week.

Thanks.

Stu
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Re: Yellowwood Ethics Debate Part 2 (Rational Man's Edition)

Postby Stu » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:07 pm

I think you'll find one problem with your poll will be that it varies from area to area, as each have their own history and accepted style of climbing/bolting. For instance, an overly runout 'sport' route would be well accepted practice at Paarl Rocks, but not at say Lower Silvermine. Same would apply to some of the other questions you raised.
In the end when doing anything related to climbing I think common sense should be foremost in any actions taken.

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XMod
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Re: Yellowwood Ethics Debate Part 2 (Rational Man's Edition)

Postby XMod » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:16 pm

Oh so now you want to be nice and engage in conversation????
SODOFFSTFUFU2&FYI no-one cares, bye!

rocklooney
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Re: Yellowwood Ethics Debate Part 2 (Rational Man's Edition)

Postby rocklooney » Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:18 am

I have to agree with XMod. Now you want to be rational? I didn't participate in the first debate because I don't know enough about it, but I know when a goose is cooked and you've cooked yours. Let it go man, no-one's interested in you.

zabullet
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Re: Yellowwood Ethics Debate Part 2 (Rational Man's Edition)

Postby zabullet » Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:51 am

Geeeeeeees. This forum is thick with hypocrisy.

Regarding the poll....I say bring it!

zb.

Wayne73
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Re: Yellowwood Ethics Debate Part 2 (Rational Man's Edition)

Postby Wayne73 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:51 pm

STFU - i think first impressions last, and based on your previous post that was not good. I appreciate what you were trying to say, however the way that it was done was not acceptable.

A question to you, what is the purpose of your survey? Is it to put together a code of conduct for placing bolts in SA? in the Western Cape? or Yellowwood specifically. Or are you just trying to gather ammo to flame certain persons with regards to their actions at yellowwood.

The questions seem to be aimed at the gathering of ammo. I do not know you but I do question your intentions based on what you have previously said. If you are actually trying to put together a code of conduct for bolting in the WC contact me via pm and I will see about helping you.
Fat men are harder to kidnap

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Justin
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Re: Yellowwood Ethics Debate Part 2 (Rational Man's Edition)

Postby Justin » Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:31 pm

stfu, you came in way to hot and heavy and now it seems nobody wants to handle you. You made a point or two, but it was completely overshadowed by your approach.

I've never seen a person lose it like that before (in person or on a forum).
I would not stand for it for it if I was talking to you in person and I certainly won't stand for it here.
:ncool:
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justin@climbing.co.za

SNORT
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Re: Yellowwood Ethics Debate Part 2 (Rational Man's Edition)

Postby SNORT » Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:47 am

STFU

Go read up on ethics on Wikipedia.

"Ethics are exercised by those who possess no power and those who support them, through personal resistance."

"It is a process of deciding what is worth valuing"

It changes over time and always differs in context.

There is a group of people that value the way that climbing has taken place at Yellowwood amphitheatre. This included placing the odd fixed piece of gear. It is worth valuing. The Germans that came and bolted at YW clearly placed no value on what YW is all about - they did not climb any of the existing routes. And any one that comes along and does not value the place for what it is, is unethical.

Bolting lines on YW profoundly changes the ethic and it is clear that the vast majority of people that know the place and have climbed there do not want it changed. The reason is that there are consequences when one changes the ethic to include bolted lines and there is no doubt that it brings greater numbers of poeple who have a greater negative effect on the environment that then de-values the place. Hence the rules at Milner.

Many people value bolted climbing. And that's fine. But then they must face the consequences of de-valued environments, bolts failures, crowds and shit at the bases of routes. There is no shortage of bolted climbs or areas to do new routes.

Why are some people obsessed with wanting to bolt YW? And most have not even come to grips with the place by doing a route there?

A poll is not appropriate...

SNORT
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Re: Yellowwood Ethics Debate Part 2 (Rational Man's Edition)

Postby SNORT » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:06 am

And STFU your first post by any standards was unethical in the context of this forum. It is also unethical in this context to stay anonymous. So nobody can and will take anything you post seriously.

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henkg
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Re: Yellowwood Ethics Debate Part 2 (Rational Man's Edition)

Postby henkg » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:52 pm

SNORT wrote:There is a group of people that value the way that climbing has taken place at Yellowwood amphitheatre. ...


100% and may you be able to keep it that way. We want and owe it to you to have it this way.

SNORT wrote:This included placing the odd fixed piece of gear.
And bolting a rap route and clipping all the contentious German bolts. Strange logic/ethics.

SNORT wrote:There is no shortage of bolted climbs ...

Not true. There is comparatively few bolted multipitch lines in the Western Cape.

SNORT wrote:Why are some people obsessed with wanting to bolt YW? ...

The only person obsessed seems to be you. For three weeks you have been carrying on about this.

No, I do not support bolting at trad venues anywhere.
STFU : BAD STYLE
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