more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

New Areas. New routes. Retrobolting. Add-ons. Re-grading. etc.
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robertbreyer
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more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by robertbreyer » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:18 am

This is for all those of us that only climb 18, or who have had their IP stolen.
Turn up the volume and go full screen if you can.


https://youtu.be/un6pEuMuXZ0

mattb595
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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by mattb595 » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:21 pm

Can we not hire Adam Ondra or Chris Sharma to climb and grade his project a 21 or something? :eye:

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Forket
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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by Forket » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:42 pm

:thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft: SAY NO TO CLOSED PROJECTS :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft:

Thanks for teaching my religion at your gyms Robert

Ebert Nel
Say no to corruption, say no to IPs. Dont let the majority of the community make you believe its "ok" to bolt a route and then keep it for yourself. IT IS NOT OK, the route is the communities and is open to be tried by all :pirat:

Pierce
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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by Pierce » Tue Apr 05, 2016 10:31 pm

I think with that mentality Ebert people are going to stop bolting routes because their effort and cash spent will have been somewhat in vain I mean the main reason someone bolts a route is because they want to get the FA....

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by rocklooney » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:25 am

Pierce wrote:I think with that mentality Ebert people are going to stop bolting routes because their effort and cash spent will have been somewhat in vain I mean the main reason someone bolts a route is because they want to get the FA....
You're wasting your bandwidth. ..... And your time.

You might as well try to explain the principle of supply and demand to Julius Malema.

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by vinceB » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:50 am

Unfortunately folks, I think Ebert is right on this subject... IPs are quite a nonsense.

Bolting is the only way to ensure that our playing grounds are going to expand and our community is going to grow. Of course, IPs are a good way to reward a bolter for his work. But, the FA is quite a small-ish reward after all. Giving a 5 star route to the community is a way better feeling.

And, in some situations, IPs are becoming noxious to the community:
1) The strength of the bolter: What if someone (climbing 25+) was to go and bolt a ton of 30+ routes around and claim them as IPs for years. Would we think it's fair? Just because he spotted the line, no one stronger can bolt it and climb it?
2) The ego battle: Pierce is saying that the process of bolting is deeply connected to the FA. I can't see why, unless you want to have your name in a guidebook? It would be great to have the name of the bolter associated to the route in the guidebook instead of the FA. The FA doesn't give you any information else than "this dude was strong back in the days". The name of the bolter is giving you at least some info on the style of bolting.
3) Slowing down the progress of the community: By increasing the number of available routes, I think we push people to get better climbers (style more varied...), which is good for the community. If IPs were opened, say after a month, some climbers would gladly financially contribute to the bolting, hence increasing the number of bolted routes around.

Erasing IPs on the wall is of course not the right course of way to make people understand this and I think it's best to discuss with bolters and authors of guidebooks.

I'm definitely keen on starting on bolting around the Western Cape. Would probably close my projects for a month as it seems a reasonable time to send a route :wink:

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by smb » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:23 am

People

If you have never done so, invest time, money and effort in any or all of: negotiating access, finding a line, buying drill, bolts and bits, cleaning the line, working out where the bolts go and drilling and placing the bolts and then reconsider if IPs "are quite a nonsense".

Next - are there really so many IPs that "progress" is being halted? Has everyone really climbed every route? Can Ebert not climb 9a because there are too many closed projects?

Or can people climb the grades they do and get they enjoyment they derive precisely because of the efforts of all those who put in the effort and spent the money, and for whom doing an FA really did mean something personally?

Consumers might do well to consider the producers.

Steve Bradshaw

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by hendriks » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:33 am

1) The strength of the bolter: What if someone (climbing 25+) was to go and bolt a ton of 30+ routes around and claim them as IPs for years. Would we think it's fair? Just because he spotted the line, no one stronger can bolt it and climb it?
Please correct me if I am wrong but this has never happened as far as I know.

2) The ego battle: Pierce is saying that the process of bolting is deeply connected to the FA. I can't see why, unless you want to have your name in a guidebook? It would be great to have the name of the bolter associated to the route in the guidebook instead of the FA. The FA doesn't give you any information else than "this dude was strong back in the days". The name of the bolter is giving you at least some info on the style of bolting.
The FA tells you this guy made the effort to find and open new lines. The style of bolting??? You are kidding right? (I just had to check the date)

3) Slowing down the progress of the community: By increasing the number of available routes, I think we push people to get better climbers (style more varied...), which is good for the community. If IPs were opened, say after a month, some climbers would gladly financially contribute to the bolting, hence increasing the number of bolted routes around.
The climbing community in SA is not limited by the amount of routes available imho. Except if you are climbing close to 30 and up, you are unlikely to run out of routes to climb. A month is also ridiculous seeing as if it is bolted in winter in the cape and conditions are off for 4 weeks you lose your project? You must be joking.

Erasing IPs on the wall is of course not the right course of way to make people understand this and I think it's best to discuss with bolters and authors of guidebooks.
In my view the bolter can decide, he forked out the cash and effort to bolt it after all.

I'm definitely keen on starting on bolting around the Western Cape. Would probably close my projects for a month as it seems a reasonable time to send a route
That is great and if you want to open your projects after 1 month, by all means do so but don't force your viewpoint on the already established local etiquette.


I really struggle to grasp why there is this head hunt of other peoples lines all of a sudden. If you don't have the balls to find and bolt lines why should you get the FA rather than the guys who go the distance? There is loads of unclimbed rock in this country, go open a new crag ffs

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Turtle
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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by Turtle » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:36 am

What smb and Hendriks said.
Too many people are commenting that has actually not bolted and opened up new routes yet. Whats that saying: a desk is is the most dangerous place from where to view the world. Or something like that.
Ol forklift must swing by Peers Cave - theres some bolted lines that might actually be this mystic 9a he skeems he will climb one day.
p.s Also, has someone seen the prices of the things needed to equip a well bolted route? Have some respect for people who dole out big bucks so this community can expand. Bottom line: its much much more honourable IMHO to join the ARF and help rebolting an old line for safety than sponging on someones project. Use your energy for that. And give the botler a year/6 months to open his project. Rant out! :thumleft:
Last edited by Turtle on Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

micky
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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by micky » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:46 am

Agreed with Steve above.

While I think a project that has been standing for many years could be opened just ask the guy who bolted it. Projects should remained closed till the bolter opens for the above reasons. Also considering that it costs in the region of R1500-R3000 for a route for bolts, plus time and effort hiking and finding routes, access negotians, bolting applications if in the western cape, a drill R8500-R15000, drill bits R80ea, glue R400 a tube, some respect for the dudes doing all this hard work isnt much to ask.

There is plenty of rock. If you have the urge to open someones else project, get off your ass, buy a drill, find a new area, find a new line, clean it, bolt it and then climb it. Dont be an uncreative consumer dick and climb someone elses line there is no reason to.

Also some IP's are there as the routes arent ready yet. I have IP's on some routes in the 20 grade range. Not because I havent climbed them but because they arent safe yet. There is still loose rock to be cleaned, a few bolts to add or sometimes the glue isnt dry. They'll be open for everyone to climb once I make things as safe as I can. I'm not bolting 20's for my own ego, i do climb harder but i'm bolting them for the community. I'd like to see more climbs up and more places for people to sport climb. But dont get on the routes yet as its not safe to do so.

But basically the whole argument is lame as there is so much rock that everyone can have their own proj and not have to climb anyone elses. If you climb someone else's route its because you lack the creativity and effort to find your own line, simple.

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by vinceB » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:02 am

Has anyone ever thought that "the already established local etiquette" could be wrong? Because, actually, I'm quite aware of the local etiquette (which is not so local if you look at anglo-saxon countries) about IPs and would climb an IP only if allowed to.
Still, a small example from abroad. In France, we are doing the following: bolters are bolting some routes, writing the guidebook and selling them to make money and bolt new routes. This is a fair incentive to bolt new stuff and "open" it quickly to the community. And actually, I think this is the best way of opening new routes quickly and making the community thrive! Knowing several bolters overseas, they don't even care about the FA. This is why I'm bringing the matter: to make people realise there are other ways.

As Micky said: "I do climb harder but i'm bolting them for the community. I'd like to see more climbs up and more places for people to sport climb. But don't get on the routes yet as its not safe to do so."
I like that way of thinking.

I can understand the enjoyment of getting the FA. But really? You see a line, you negotiate the access, you create a path, you buy bolts and stuff, you bolt it, you clean it, you spent months on it, because of the FA?
Someone telling me he loved my newly bolted route is way better than getting a FA. Guess you can get both sometimes!

Once again, this is my way of thinking. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything and I'm really grateful for the great job of former and active bolters in the country. I think stealing closed projects in the current consensus is a very kak thing to do, especially considering the high number of OPEN projects available (Ebert: come and have a look at the OP at the Pipeline in Montagu...).

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by Sarel » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:15 am

I rate that the community should have a vote to decide what a reasonable amount of time is.

At this point of time the general consensus in the South African climbing community is at least a year to open a closed project.

Personally I don't think that it's to long.
"We're all here because we're all not quite there"

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by Deon » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:44 am

It is real simple for me: If I bolt a route and are trying it on a regular basis, I will moer someone that climb it before me without permission.

I have bolted a few lines and it is a lot of effort. On Some I felt it was too hard for me and I made it open and other I worked on for a while and finished it with great satisfaction.

The simple answer is just ask the guy who bolted the route. Its not rocket science and there are no need to over complicate things....

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by mokganjetsi » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:28 pm

i enjoyed reading vince's write-ups in a french accent ;)
the whole psychology behind the coveted FA is interesting to me - it does seem there's a lot of ego involved here. not saying the above reasons are not legit (they are!) but it is a bit weird guys. imagine the route's been bolted & cleaned, and some day an oke walks by, climbs it and doesn't tell anybody. the bolter gets his "FA" a bit later with nothing lost - the route is still exactly the same route (assuming no chalk marks). so why do we want the FA? you can still send the route......

i think the bolter should name a route - period. so streetfighter and the overlord were not up for a name change. also, the bolter should get the only recognition in the guide book - unless there's some significance to the opening ascent (e.g. dragon rider / newborn opened years and years after they were bolted)

i do not object at all to bolters getting a reasonable amount of time to open their projects, but some introspection as to why the FA is so important could be useful. it does seem that guys who have opened many and some epic lines gets less attached to the FA? :thumright

ps: if i bolt a route, i know i would love to get the FA. no judgment.
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dannypinkas
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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by dannypinkas » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:43 pm

There is no difference between the Psychology of a FA and any other development/invention/creation to which someone puts their name. Some call it pride, others ego.

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by Flex » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:29 pm

I haven't commented in a while but here goes...

I think it is admirable to bolt lines and make them open projects.
I think it is deplorable to rub out the IP's of other people's projects.
When you have climbed every route at a crag, perhaps you should ask the bolters of any closed projects if you can try their lines as otherwise you have nothing left to climb (or even better bolt your own new routes)

For the record, the following are open projects in Boven:
A Life in Orange. Superbowl. Fully bolted. Probably 34/35? Immaculate line up the
cleanest (blankest!) wall at Boven, a few metres left of Snapdragon. Reach will help.
Bolted by Andrew Pedley.
Heavens Above Project. At the God No! Wall. Almost fully bolted. Takes the centre of
the biggest steepest part of the roof section at God No. Either as an extension of
Juggernaut or Freakshow. Not that hard, maybe 33? Would be an amazing top out.
Bolted by Andrew Pedley.
Above and Beyond Project. The ridiculous concept through the roof above Freak On.
Bolted by Mattt Bush in 2011.
Mind Games Project. Fully bolted. On the Time Bomb block at the Triple Tier Crags.
A hard line in a hard position! Bolted by Wes Black and Alex Bester. MCSA bolts.
ACRA Wall 9a project. At the ACRA wall. Right of ‘Something Esoteric’ is a wall
with just enough slopers and crimps to be possible, at 9a or harder. Only top anchors in.

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by JessJardimWedepohl » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:44 pm

Flex wrote:Not that hard, maybe 33?
Image

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The Jimmy
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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by The Jimmy » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:17 pm

Honestly this kind of talk makes one cringe. It does not concern you (YOU who did NOT bolt the line) what a reasonable amount of time is for the bolter to attempt the FA.

The line was there for anyone to bolt and you had ample time and opportunity to do so, same as everyone else, but you did not. Now that someone's actually shown up and put the effort in, you attempt internet forums full of justifications about why it should be OK for you to poach someone else's work and initiative. His reasons, be it ego, name in a guidebook, the smell of stainless steel in the morning, OR WHATEVER, are not your concern.

Wait your turn and don't be a vampire waiting in the wings for an opportunity! It is an IP until the bolter decides it's not, and there's plenty of rock to go around if you have a drill and bolts burning a hole in your backpack. Is it that hard to respect this process?

There is no need that I'm aware of in SA to have bolters churn out X nr of routes per year so that there's a constant supply of fresh stuff that can be advertised in guidebooks or whatever. And even if this were the case, it is till not hard (it shouldn't be, but clearly is to some) to respect that some individual bolters might want to keep their projects IP's, and the masses can go try the rest that are open projects.

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The Jimmy
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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by The Jimmy » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:31 pm

If the MCSA or other organisation made available 1000 bolts a year with the specific mandate to bolt 90-100 new routes a year, and ppl volunteered their time to do this with the understanding that these would be open projects or become open projects within a pre-determined amount of time in order to "drive the sport forward" for those who need to do so, then fine, that's something that can stand on it's own legs.

But if an individual spied a line, took money from his own pocket, showed up and invested time and effort to bolt a line for whatever his reasons may be (which once again is no-one else's concern) then surely the individual's wishes re keeping it an IP until he decides it's open to all can be respected.

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by mokganjetsi » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:56 pm

dannypinkas wrote:There is no difference between the Psychology of a FA and any other development/invention/creation to which someone puts their name. Some call it pride, others ego.
yup, you bolt it, you name it and your name is on it. what does the FA add to that? only that you were first to climb it. if somebody else climbs it tomorrow, then you get some satisfaction of having been the first :? like i said, i would also like to open routes i bolt; just a thought the "feeling of accomplishment" or whatever is a bit strange.

there is also a difference to getting the FA of a route that many guys can climb vs. pushing the boundaries - first on everest, first on the moon; first to climb 9a; all famous. but still strange to me we westerners with our obsession of being "the first"; claiming BS like we "discovered" the victoria falls or discovered some land / island while the indigenous where there for millenia. it speaks to me of the arrogance of thinking we own stuff - like mountains or cliffs or lines we bolted. no, long after you became fertilizer for daffodils that line will still be there; with or without your now rusty bolts.

anyways, i think bolters should get good time to open a route; but hogging a route for years is bad form

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by micky » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:29 pm

Just finished bolting another route today!!

put a big fat IP on it, cos i dont want anyone to climb it for two reasons. Firstly it was pretty difficult to access and took almost a day of rigging before we even got to place the first bolt. I've spent cash and time (also time for making the bolting application). I'd like to at least have a chance to climb it before everyone else does. Anyone could have eyed the line and bolted it but they didnt, I did, so give me a chance to climb it. It feels pretty hard, maybe 28. Who knows it could be easier once i figure out some sections. If i feel its too hard i'll probably just let someone else open it

Secondly some key holds are a little brittle and need backing up. I ran out of glue today (only took a mostly spent tube to the crag) backing up some flaky holds but one or two more need some help. So i dont want some dick getting on the route and breaking the holds before i get them backed up. With the holds as is, its a nice sustained route, if a hold breaks which might happen it could end up having one of those stopper sections which arent as cool.

IP's arent only about ego, so show a little respect. Tons of other route potential in the area, you just have to put in a little bit of effort which okes wanting climb IP's dont seem to want to do.

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by Hector » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:03 pm

We don't need a time limit or more rules. Unlike France our community is tiny. If you want to try an IP phone the bolter, buy them a beer, offer a catch. I guarantee you either know them already or know someone who does. Sort it out like an adult - with respect. Not because of who they are or how hard they climb, but because they're invested in a process which is meaningful to them. Don't piss on that investment whether it’s after a month, a year or any other arbitrary time. There's a lot of talk about community. Community has nothing to do with who climbed what or opened what. It has everything to do with how we treat each other. Just be respectful and make an effort.

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by XMod » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:18 pm

I havent read this entire two(!) threads worth - but I will say this. As someone who has numerous projects stolen, some before I had even had a chance to get on them - it f-cking sucks!!!! Its theft plain and simple. There are few things more disappointing and embittering than to find a kif line, spend sometimes days and loads of harness hang time equipping it - then to arrive at the crag later all amped only to find some pathetic squatter has already climbed it. Its a big fat middle finger straight in your face!

In my case Joe Mohle and Marijus Smigelkus were the marauding party (Its ok - we've talked it through and its behind us now), both top notch climbers. It seems that when guys get to the top level they suddenly think that because they can do other peoples projects - they must, its some kind of urban legend, underground pride type thing. Doing it behind someones back and not telling them is even worse. Then that person is all psyched coz they think they've got an FA but are also wondering why the hot-shots are all snickering at them from the corner of the bar - just plain mean.

DONT F_ING STEAL PROJECTS!!! It just makes a complete mockery of everything climbing is supposed to stand for. If I want to be snaked on a line I'll go surfing. We dont need that shit in climbing thank you very much.

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by dannypinkas » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:39 pm

As almost everyone on this thread agrees, respect is key. A person who spots and puts the effort into preparing a line deserves respect, which includes time to open it irrespective of their motives. If someone is desperate to cash in on the efforts of others there is nothing to stop them from asking permission. Simple as that!
With the holds as is, its a nice sustained route, if a hold breaks which might happen it could end up having one of those stopper sections which arent as cool.

Slightly off the topic of this thread, but are there established ethics for the above situation on a long-standing route? I'm thinking in particular of Paradise by the Sea (25) at the Superbowl in Boven which recently lost a key bottom hold. I tried it in its new format over the weekend and it's way above my current level. I believe the move will go, but it would make the route a one (desperate and unpleasant) move wonder. So, would it be acceptable to glue a similar hold to the original one in order to preserve the character of the line or should it be regarded as lost to anyone who climbs below 30, possibly higher? In other words, would it be acceptable to save a 20 year old route by doing a Rodan on it?

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by micky » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:07 pm

I say put a hold on in Danny. Make it look nice and maybe color the glue with the some sand from the base. Rather a stellar continous line than a route with one 9b move. Especially if it was already opened at a grade. I wouldnt condone manufacturing routes, thats what the gym is for, but if its repairing a broken route, backing up existing holds or simply filling a stopper gap then go for it.

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by mokganjetsi » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:11 am

Agree with Micky re repairing existing routes. same needs to be done for TranceDance at Sivermine main crag; was 23, now 28+

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by micky » Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:58 am

what broke on trance dance? I did it late last year and it seemed fine?

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by mokganjetsi » Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:55 am

The small crimp / flake on the balance move just below the big roof at the top. Now there's blank nothingness. Wondering if pasting a hold or chipping a new crimp would be more appropriate ?

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by XMod » Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:57 pm

More ethics... SIGH! If you dont have the original flake off the route then dont fix it - its gonna look bad, feel odd and generally degrade the crag by doing it. I 'fixed' a line at Kalk Bay that shed a key horn/jug. It promptly just broke again. Ed Smigelkus was close to sending without the hold. Yeah it bumped the grade from 8a to 8b/+, but it would have been a thing of beauty that move, requiring puhkka levitation techniques to do. I let my ego get in the way (after all it was 'my' project - right?? - yes, by then Id given up on fighting away the hoardes and just let ppl try it / do it) and ruined a stellar line.

Here's a view of pure ethics: Dont use any tools to clean your line, hands only. Try and avoid backing up holds unless they are absolutely crucial, get a second opinion on this before you glue from someone with a stict ethical code. NEVER chip or glue on an artficial (yes this menans bit of rock too) hold - EVER!

If a toy breaks try and rescue the hold and put it in a niche or somewhere safe at the bottom of the route (then if the consensus is to repair the route the hold can be used again). Otherwise just leave the line as is - someone will do it - future generations will laugh at the grades that seem out of reach to you now.

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Re: more on Ebert's Unholy Crusade.

Post by mokganjetsi » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:04 am

generally i agree with you greg, but the reality: trance dance used to be a **** 23; now a ** 28(?). it is such a shame - was one of the better routes at the crag now reduced to something not really worth climbing. (saw another party on the route this wkend and they too had to aid through the blank section).
generally i subscribe to your ethics but surely there are exceptions, of which i think this is one. i will chat to malcolm and hear what he says; with some effort we might be able to "repair " the route whilst maintaining a natural look & feel - which i think is the key.

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