Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

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Wes
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Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by Wes » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:27 pm


mokganjetsi
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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by mokganjetsi » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:46 pm

yup guide-mode not great for lowering. i sometimes lower only by "lifting" the device with one hand whilst managing rope release with the other, but that is hard work! the proper set-up + backup is the way to go.

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GClamp
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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by GClamp » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:39 am

Hey Wes

Thanks for posting this!

Didn't really think about this but good to read this stuff before making the same mistake

Chris F
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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by Chris F » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:32 am

Seems like divergent evolution? As soon as you specialise you lose versatility.

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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by Warren G » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:59 pm

I agree with Andre here. The problem with the design is its too good, but I bet that could be corrected by re positioning the loop. I still haven't found a better type of device than these-Tre is no longer and a Grigri has no place on a two roped route.I suppose the solution is the combination of both: an ATC type device with two handles, but that would be heavy and cumbersome.
Sandbagging is a dirty game

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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by hendriks » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:53 pm

See below a comment I made on another platform regarding this incident:

"The most important thing when lowering from autolock setup on a atc/reverso type device is to ensure the brake side of the rope runs along the device in the same manner it would when you belay a lead climber. This means the rope has to for instance run along the "groove" on the device to give you enough friction allowing you to control the lower. To do this simply by pulling in a upwards direction with your brake hand is very difficult and likely to fail. This is why they use a munter hitch, You have to ensure the biner that you do the munter on, the "friction biner", is above the device as this allows the proper routing of the rope through the device. If done via a high directional friction biner properly put above the device you can even safely lower without using a munter hitch by only running the rope through the biner and downwards through your brake hand. If you have any doubt about how this actually works, always use a munter or tie of the rope and let your partner prussic up to you (assuming they are not injured etc). Also, even when belaying in autoblock mode, ALWAYS ALWAYS have a hand on the brake side or tail end of the rope, simillar like you should with a grigri."

Andreh wrote:Instead of backing the system up with another piece and a Munter hitch, which seems to be the most common system, would it be viable to tie the brake end of the rope to a locker on your belay loop with a Prussik knot? Then you can lift to release the Guide device slowly and not worry about it opening fully suddenly causing the climber to drop...

Are there any other simple safety systems people use when lowering with a Guide device in autoblock mode?

Andre
Problem with using a prussic on your belay loop, so below the device, is that it will not assist in controlling the lower at all and will only act as a safety which will have to successfully catch every single time you release the reverso/etc. The thing with releasing and lowering while in autolock mode is that you do NOT have variable friction so you cannot control the speed at which you lower. It will either be fully locked, or completely unlocked which is why as I mention above you add the higher biner, with or without a munter, to control the lower.

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:59 pm

Andreh wrote:So, if I understand you correctly, if everything is set up correctly, once the Reverso is unloaded, you use the friction on the Munter hitch to lower, right? Effectively bypassing the Reverso for purposes of lowering.

André
Yes, correct.

It is also true however that the reverso/guide/whatever works as well inverted as it does the right way up for lowering, provided that it is used in the identical manner, if it is not used identically the Munter hitch is needed. The abrupt change from locked to free fall when releasing can catch out even very experienced people and result in the type accident described in the article

For those of you looking for a more gentle release from guide mode than the rather abrupt transition that is characteristic of these devices, the DMM Pivot works well.
Happy climbing
Nic

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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by Forket » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:47 pm

Whats the best method for belaying with twin ropes, from the top, in the case of an overhanging route and stance (climber might do a lot of hanging)?

Ebert Nel

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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by hendriks » Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:30 am

If you will have to lower every time your second falls, belay from your harness as you normally would and run the ropes through a biner on your anchor.

You should be able to do multipitch belays without an autolocking device anyhow. I often come across people that say using a atc-guide/reverso for trad multipicth is the only safe way. That is wrong. It is convenient and easier to manage is all.

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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:48 am

Andreh wrote:@ Nic: I dont really follow what you are saying in the sentence quoted above. Are you saying use a second Reverso instead of a Munter hitch for backup?
If you use a guide/reverso normally and you are lowering a climber from above you, the rope follows a specific path through the device.
Image

Now when used in auto locking mode, if you need to lower, make sure that rope still follows the same path as it would when you are lowering normally, through the friction grooves.

I couldn't find a good picture just now but if you have it set up as in the picture below, make sure the tail of the rope exiting the device is redirected UPWARDS in as close to the same line as the incoming strand as you can get it, this will ensure the device still gives quite a lot of friction.

Image
I'd practice this at home first before trying it out on the rock. Learning when exactly the transition between locked off to unlocked occurs is important. It's not easy to judge it by eye
Happy climbing
Nic

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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by Gustav » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:52 am

You can also clip the (back-up) munter hitch onto your belay loop if you are belaying from below the device (as one would normally do). Think about it.
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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by hendriks » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:12 pm

Gustav wrote:You can also clip the (back-up) munter hitch onto your belay loop if you are belaying from below the device (as one would normally do). Think about it.
Yes you can do that but then you will only have the munter to control the lower and the atc-guide/reverso will not contribute anything ito friction/control.
Guide_mode_lower.jpg
Guide_mode_lower.jpg (39.56 KiB) Viewed 3060 times
This poorly drawn diagram best explains most of what has been said. It is really simple and only requires adding a single biner to your anchor and of you go. The biner you use can be the same length as the one holding your belay device.

Once set up like this the device will function in the same way as when you belay a lead climber.

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Gustav
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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by Gustav » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:38 pm

...but then you will only have the munter to control the lower ...
Yes, and a munter has way more friction than an ATC. Really. So only having the munter will be just fine.
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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by Xharlie » Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:25 pm

I've been in Germany for eight months, now, in Nürnberg, and nearly everyone I have climbed with has preferred the munter hitch to guide-mode devices. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen someone, here, using guide mode. (Not that I have climbed a whole tonne of multi-pitch stuff...)

Personally, I still like guide mode when my second is on two ropes or I have two seconds.

Andreh: If I understand you correctly, wouldn't redirecting the "outer rope" upwards lead to something that wasn't guide-mode at all? The outer rope has to push down on the breaking rope to create the breaking friction.

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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by hendriks » Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:58 am

Gustav wrote:Yes, and a munter has way more friction than an ATC. Really. So only having the munter will be just fine.
Nothing wrong with a munter but the atc is a lot nicer to your ropes. Also, running two ropes as you would on many trad climbs means running two munters (potentially). It is also a lot quicker to clip the rope through an extra biner abover the device and something you are less likely to screw up when under pressure. But both methods are fine, personally I think redirecting the rope gives you way more control as it is very easy to manage. I have actually lowered someone using this setup and it works fine.
Xharlie wrote:I've been in Germany for eight months, now, in Nürnberg, and nearly everyone I have climbed with has preferred the munter hitch to guide-mode devices. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen someone, here, using guide mode. (Not that I have climbed a whole tonne of multi-pitch stuff...)

Personally, I still like guide mode when my second is on two ropes or I have two seconds.

Andreh: If I understand you correctly, wouldn't redirecting the "outer rope" upwards lead to something that wasn't guide-mode at all? The outer rope has to push down on the breaking rope to create the breaking friction.
There is nothing wrong with using guide mode. Munters work fine but they kill your rope if used a lot (twisting, sheath abrasion).
Andreh wrote:@Xharlie. Yes, I agree 100%. Thats why I said you'll lose the benefits of the autoblock system if you do it that way. It will be just like belaying someone while standing on the ground.
I assume when you talk about redirecting the "outer" rope you are referring to the brake side?

Devices that allow you to rig guide mode type setups are great for multipitch trad and I would recommend using that in most cases when bringing up a second. It just makes rope management at stances so much easier, especially hanging stances. Just know what to do when you need to lower/change the setup etc.

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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:05 am

hendriks wrote:Also, running two ropes as you would on many trad climbs means running two munters (potentially).
A munter made with both strands works just fine, you don't need two separate hitches. You've even seen me use one before at 2de Waterfal
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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by Jacobus » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:34 am

https://www.google.co.za/search?q=body+ ... Ca-9ztM%3A

Fkn pansies. This is the only proper way to bring up a second. Quit with these unnatural devices and suck up the rope burn.

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Re: Climber Dropped When Lowered in Autoblock Mode

Post by hendriks » Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:24 pm

Nic Le Maitre wrote:
hendriks wrote:Also, running two ropes as you would on many trad climbs means running two munters (potentially).
A munter made with both strands works just fine, you don't need two separate hitches. You've even seen me use one before at 2de Waterfal
Ja nee well aware that it works, more thinking of ergonomics but many ways to skin the cat.
Jacobus wrote:https://www.google.co.za/search?q=body+ ... Ca-9ztM%3A

Fkn pansies. This is the only proper way to bring up a second. Quit with these unnatural devices and suck up the rope burn.
I see your body belay and I raise you a
snow-belay-2.jpg
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or
5-eric.jpg
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5. Belay plate. Wilson’s Promontory (Trackside Wall), 1982. Eric Jones proving that a single sky-hook belay anchor is absolutely bomb-proof (as long as the second doesn’t do anything silly – like fall off). - See more at: http://osp.com.au/?p=6355#sthash.RLVN1MJz.dpuf

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