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SuperC
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bad idea , moto learned climb up , walk down

Post by SuperC » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:49 pm

Hi guys(and girls if there are any around)

I'm planning on doing a rappel/abseil down a waterfall of about 150m (it is dry , only water in heavy rains)
I want some tips on how to do this safely

There are enough anchor points at the top to secure the rope safely and will probably use a minimum of 5 anchor(between webbing cams and nuts)
I have done climbed for 5 years , and if I go , it'll be my time , no one else's life will be at risk.

I am going to buy myself 180m of tendon 10mm static rope (NEW) and wondered what device I must use to get down so far I have thought grigri2 , figure 8 (the small side) or a rack , I will also use one 7 mm friction not as safety and wondered if I must invest in like a 6mm safety line? or would you guys trust one rope ? I mean fall 150m vs 30m chances that you are dead are about the same.

And if I were to use a safety line , how will I control it?

any feedback will be gladly appreciated
Last edited by SuperC on Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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justfly
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by justfly » Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:40 pm

CAREfall ...BE VERRY CAREFULL ....!!!!!

in caving a rack is used to handle the dynamics of rope weight

hey and don't let you're mom know ....

PS "yer gona .......


















































die "
who needs big jugs when you've got a tight crack

The Real McCoy
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by The Real McCoy » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:04 pm

There are very few devices out there rated for single drop abseils over 100m. Figure of eight and most tube type devices are only good up to 60m. Best device to use would be a Rack. As far as wether to use a single or double rope system, two is always safer than one but then the chances of actually needing the second line are very slim. If you decide to use a second line then my choice of device would be a Singing Rock Locker conected to your harness via a cowstail (short length of dynamic rope).

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SuperC
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by SuperC » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:26 pm

justfly wrote:CAREfall ...BE VERRY CAREFULL ....!!!!!

in caving a rack is used to handle the dynamics of rope weight

hey and don't let you're mom know ....

PS "yer gona .......

die "
Shot for the confidence boost

racks can be used on static & dynamic ropes?
or would say to rather take a grigri?

and ps not gonna die.... Going to have a lot of anchors and a extra 7 mm safety line that will be controlled by a person on top , so would think that is fairly safe

and eh , if it's my time to go , it's my time...

Ghaznavid
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by Ghaznavid » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:48 pm

SuperC wrote:Going to have a lot of anchors and a extra 7 mm safety line that will be controlled by a person on top , so would think that is fairly safe
Good luck and I'm happy to hear that re the second line. Don't die, you'll ruin SA's climbing fatality stats :lol:

But seriously, please remember safety first. Even though I have absolutely no clue who you are, I'm sure that most of us will agree that we don't want you to hurt yourself :eye:
SuperC wrote:and eh , if it's my time to go , it's my time...
If you need help drafting a will, let me know :study:
"There is something fundamentally wrong in treating the Earth as if it were a business in liquidation." Herman E Daly

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SuperC
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by SuperC » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:16 pm

Ghaznavid wrote:
SuperC wrote:Going to have a lot of anchors and a extra 7 mm safety line that will be controlled by a person on top , so would think that is fairly safe
Good luck and I'm happy to hear that re the second line. Don't die, you'll ruin SA's climbing fatality stats :lol:

But seriously, please remember safety first. Even though I have absolutely no clue who you are, I'm sure that most of us will agree that we don't want you to hurt yourself :eye:
SuperC wrote:and eh , if it's my time to go , it's my time...
If you need help drafting a will, let me know :study:

Haha thanks man , new to the forum , just a guy who is looking for some adrenalin in his life

SA's climbing fatality Only two that I know of so far

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/ ... t-20100810

and the guy on table mountain when a rock fell on his head because he was not wearing a helmet.

just wanting to know what can go wrong with this?(or just minimize the risk of something going wrong)

lets say 4 anchors for mail line (there are big rocks at the top so will put a rope around it and make sure it doesn't move and lets say 3 cams in cracks)
2 anchors for safety line (will keep the anchors separate from main line)

will descend using a grigri on the main line with friction knot as backup in case I get a fright and clutch the grigri all the way open.
bugger up with safety line is what to do if it tangles around the main line , but will be controlled by person on top via bug

rope will have a 1 m protector on on cliff edge to prevent cutting and is rated to take 3500 kg , and I'm really not that fat

any other safety tips you guys can give , can't seem to find that much on google

and this whole thing of my time to go is a joke , really don't want to go , that's why I'm enquiring here , will probably also speak to people at cityrock

This will take place about a month from now when I'm on the farm again

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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by wravenant » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:33 am

I would be careful with the gri-gri.

I have had a similar set up. To be honest, the friction hitch and the gri-gri does not really work well together, you can not descend smoothly, handling the gri-gri and the friction hitch at the same time. By the time you get to 50m, every time you stop, you have quite a bit of stretch on the rope, then you have to get going again, it is an arduous task.

Furthermore, I found that the gri-gri (did not have gri-gri 2) got EXTREMELY hot, and the plastic lever started bending. Now I know there are guys rapping off El Cap with haul bags on gri-gri's but on a 60m abseil down a dry waterfall, it got HOT, and I did not like it.

As a suggestion ( I have not yet done 150 m rap off one) what about a Mammut Smart. It is auto locking and I find it to be VERY smooth, also, it has no mechanical parts.

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robertbreyer
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by robertbreyer » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:41 am

ATC or Grigri wont really work because the weight of the rope will be too heavy and effectively be locking you off at the top.
Heat etc are all manageable. Belay or rappel devices dont as such have a 'length' rating.
Check out what the Abseil Africa people do on TM. 120m: they use a Petzl RACK, works great.
https://www.mountainmailorder.co.za/ind ... ductId=271
Riggers do lengths like this all the time and also use the Rack.

Single rope is fine if you are a confident abseiler.
The length of the abseil really has little to do with the safety aspect.
Doesnt matter if shit happens at 60m or 150m, same end-result.
Do you use a backup when you do a shorter abseil?
If anything longer abseil is safer because of the weight of the rope - if you let go of the brake hand on the upper section, the weight of the rope will probably be sufficient to stop you on its own.

-Robert
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Garron
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by Garron » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:59 am

Your rap sounds like fun. You sound well prepared, I've done multiple on raps of up to 120m with 11mm dynamic ropes using figure of 8's. This works ok it is a little difficult to start the abseil but a friend that was only about 60kg managed it so unless are taking some kids with you should be fine with the figure of 8 although a rack is much better for this.

Use this system for extra safety http://mountainadventurecompany.com/ind ... eil-Safely.

I would avoid using the grigri for this as it gets very hot and it is easy to singe the rope's mantel. Also abseiling with the rope crossed over your bum (once you get going fast enough) seems to help reduce the heat generated on the eight.

Tie a knot in the end of the rope and make sure the rope makes it all the way and take some jummars along and know how to use them while dangling from the end of the rope.

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:17 am

There have been several more fatalities climbing (see here from Andy Lewis SAMA database) than 2, at least 31 just in the Cape.

The composition of your stances is backwards. The main line anchor doesn't need to be massively bomber because it will only be taking static load/very small dynamic loads during the abseil. The safety line anchor will however need to be bomber because if your main line fails it will be taking a large dynamic load. Weighting your safety line during the abseil is also a bad idea because a weighted rope is far more likely to be cut than an unweighted line. The best backup will be unweighted line which you are belayed on or runs parallel to your main line and you use a shunt/prussik. Even better than the above is to be lowered on one line and belayed on the other. It is horizontal movement of a loaded rope over rock that results in ropes being cut (as little as 40cm movement over the edge of a household clay brick). Vertical movement just results in the rope sheath getting a little fluffy.

Something else we use in rescue on abseils to improve safety is PVC rope protectors. You place one of them on the rope before you start abseiling and every time you get to a point where the rock looks like it might damage the rope you leave it there, the pressure of the rock on the rope will hold it in place.

Another good idea for long abseils (unless they are entirely overhanging) is to abseil with the rope stacked in a bag, feeding it out as you go. It reduces the chances of the rope getting tangled/snagged on trees. Use whatever abseil device you like, all will work, some are just better than others. I've done very long abseils with 200m of rope in a bag and a heavy pack on a grigri successfully. You just have to stop every now and then to cool it off with water or something. A no point will it get hot enough to melt the rope (see here), but it can singe the sheath which is unsightly rather than dangerous. A rack, stop, pro-allp or big figure-8 (Petzl Piranhas rock BTW) will work the best. If you use a conventional figure-8, remember than unless the bight of rope goes through the big hole and through the carabiner it can easily slip up (particularly when going over an edge) and lark's foot the figure-8, making it very difficult to get off the rope.



Good luck.

If the pawpaw does hit the fan call Metro Control on 021 937 0300 and they will sort out a rescue.
Happy climbing
Nic

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Stefan Smeda
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by Stefan Smeda » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:27 am

I've done a 140m rappel off a bridge once. I only had a fig-8, not the best choice. I went really slowly but the device got mega hot. Halfway down I wished I had some water to cool it with, but that would probably have been a bad idea as well. Get a rack. Enjoy the view!

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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by Stefan Smeda » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:35 am


pierre.joubert
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by pierre.joubert » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:07 am

Want to buy a Petzl rack?

Check out my ad (shameless plug)

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=10549

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SuperC
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by SuperC » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:56 pm

Shot for all the replies guys , will probably use a rack

I have had a close encounter with a figure-8 , when 5 years ago I did a small abseil about 7m, used the bid hole and ended up loosing control and burning my hand badly , and also had quite a hard encounter with the ground. Shows you that you can never be safe enough. I was still young then and learned a valuable lesson. So now I will do my do my research first.

Just some questions about the the rack.
-Is it safe? (can the rope slip out)
-How easily does it brake
-Do you still require a friction not?

Also another question
I see friction nots can range from 5mm to 7mm , I normally use 5mm , out of interest sakes what diameter do you guys use? because the smaller it is , the easier it will clamp on the rope (in my theory)

double rope figure 8 always seams descent , but yes not going to buy 300 m of rope easily and it will start to cook!

Can feel the adrenalin pumping already :wink:

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:59 pm

SuperC wrote: Just some questions about the the rack.
-Is it safe? (can the rope slip out)
-How easily does it brake
-Do you still require a friction not?
Yes, it is safe, as safe as any other climbing device... you need to read and understand the instructions and hopefully receive competent instruction in its use.
The number of bars in use controls the amount of friction and can be varied while the device is on the rope.
A "friction not"? I presume that you mean a prussik knot based on what you say next?
SuperC wrote: Also another question
I see friction nots can range from 5mm to 7mm , I normally use 5mm , out of interest sakes what diameter do you guys use? because the smaller it is , the easier it will clamp on the rope (in my theory)
It depends on you. I regard a prussik safety on abseils as generally a faf and a waste of time but then I usually try to avoid abseiling as it is unnecessarily dangerous (see this thread for a full discussion). If you are being belayed from the top or using a safety line with a shunt/prussik then the prussik safety on a leg loop is total overkill.
The choice of prussik cord diameter is based on the diameter of the rope it will be used on, thicker cord releases easier but bites badly so the choice is usually a compromise. 8mm cord works well on 11mm, 6mm works well on 10mm, 4/5mm works well on 8mm etc etc.
SuperC wrote:double rope figure 8 always seams descent , but yes not going to buy 300 m of rope easily and it will start to cook!
Not too sure what you mean here? Do you plan to do the abseil with double ropes through a fig-8? Or did you misunderstand what was said earlier about having a safety line or being belayed?
Happy climbing
Nic

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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by Ghaznavid » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:59 pm

SuperC wrote:and the guy on table mountain when a rock fell on his head because he was not wearing a helmet.
I always say that it is unwise to climb without a helmet. But if a small rock has fallen a fair distance, a helmet will just change how the person dies/how messy it is to clean up afterward. To quote Cesar when I asked him if a climbing helmet would actually help in a rockfall he said "a helmet only needs to be about as strong as your neck".
"There is something fundamentally wrong in treating the Earth as if it were a business in liquidation." Herman E Daly

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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by Justin » Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:35 pm

Inus, from the questions you are asking you get my adrenalin pumping (which could result in the rescue team getting their adrenalin pumping too :)

May I suggest getting in touch with a climbing guide/instructor? Trial and error is not such a good thing whilst at height.
If you need recommendations drop me a mail: justin@climbing.co.za
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SuperC
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by SuperC » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:13 pm

Nic Le Maitre wrote: Yes, it is safe, as safe as any other climbing device... you need to read and understand the instructions and hopefully receive competent instruction in its use.
The number of bars in use controls the amount of friction and can be varied while the device is on the rope.
A "friction not"? I presume that you mean a prussik knot based on what you say next?
Sorry Nic , should have defined with friction knot I was going to use since there are 4 different ones namely:
Prusik knot
Klemheist knot
Bachmann knot
Autoblock knot AKA French Prusik knot

Prusik knot seems the best , but from all the advice here , I will probably end up only using a rack and then have a second person control my descent with a safety rope


Nic Le Maitre wrote:
SuperC wrote:double rope figure 8 always seams descent , but yes not going to buy 300 m of rope easily and it will start to cook!
Not too sure what you mean here? Do you plan to do the abseil with double ropes through a fig-8? Or did you misunderstand what was said earlier about having a safety line or being belayed?
[/quote]
Sorry that is what I was talking about.
Double ropes through the figure-8 is an option , I take it you had mistaken it for a knot since I wasn't clear enough . Via this option I would have to go very slow and buy another rope for that. I would also not use a safety line then , so will rather skip this option as it won't necessary be stronger

Option know looks like a rack (only that) and a safety line that is controlled via third person

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SuperC
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by SuperC » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:24 pm

Justin wrote:Inus, from the questions you are asking you get my adrenalin pumping (which could result in the rescue team getting their adrenalin pumping too :)

May I suggest getting in touch with a climbing guide/instructor? Trial and error is not such a good thing whilst at height.
If you need recommendations drop me a mail: justin@climbing.co.za
Thank you for the concerning reply Justin

I will certainly not do this without the concern of a instructor.

I will ask the guys at CityRock and will certainly not just attempt this.

I have done a couple of abseils over the years ,but I will always be concerned with the safety issue that is involved

I will probably also have to get some private instructing on how to set-up safe anchors
Trial and error is not a option here , and don't think the rescue team will have much too clean up , but let me not go into that

Thank you for the email , will certainly want to have a few lessons from a instructor

And yes thank you for all the replies guys , didn't know this forum was so active!

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:42 am

SuperC wrote:Sorry Nic , should have defined with friction knot I was going to use since there are 4 different ones namely:
Prusik knot
Klemheist knot
Bachmann knot
Autoblock knot AKA French Prusik knot
Sorry to be a pedant but it ensures that we are all on the same page here. The correct name for what you call friction knots is prussiks/prussik knots of which there are at least 5 common ones and many more uncommon ones. A friction knot is something like a Munter hitch or Alpine Clutch.

I second what Justin said about getting instruction from a qualified guide.

By the way, where is this cliff? GPS coordinates will make it much easier to come and get you should this all go pear shaped.
Happy climbing
Nic

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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by TheJosh » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:16 pm

Petzle Stop?

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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by ant » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:37 pm

There are standard ways to do this completely safely, the major component of which have been described above.

It's unfair on yourself or on those posting to take full confidence in online text and then jumping out there.
When 'accidents' do happen they are invariably 'inevitablements' that rescuers would conclude to the family would have not happened if reasonably standard practices had been applied.

Two ropes would be a rescue or industry standard, but not entirely necessary in a recreational context.
There are however many other moving pieces.

Either get hold of a comprehensive text, or I can back Justin up: learn from someone who knows and who is recognised as knowing. It'll cost a few minutes of a hospital bill.
Justin is good, as are Venture Forth, Ross Suter and a handful of others.
Either
- do a course
- have them come with you - you'll learn a lot and will have confidence next time

Also, take someone with you when you do this. It's someone to check with if you are running away with yourself, and someone who can call for help if you somehow get 'stuck, but still safe'

Ant

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:51 pm

Ant is being too modest, he's certainly qualified to teach this stuff to you too. You'll just have to try to pin him down on one of the few occasions he is not swanning around overseas working.
Happy climbing
Nic

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SuperC
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by SuperC » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:00 pm

Thank you all for the replies

I guess I'm going to extend this abseil for a year or two.
I got a lot of info via this thread ,but had a talk to a couple of guys at cityRock.

I'm still going to do a few abseils in about a month ,but will be much shorter (40 - 50m max)

I have already done a couple of courses for climbing , but going to extend my knowledge a little via a good friend of mine that has a lot of experience.
And also for reasons that the rope alone is 4 k with the safety line that is around 1.5k. It's not unaffordable , but I'm really not going to use this setup more than 3 times a year in this time of my life

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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:20 pm

Here's an idea. Learn how to do a knot pass then beg/borrow enough rope (in several lengths) to do the abseil. Alternatively take up climbing and you'll quickly find that abseiling is the boring but rather dangerous and (mostly) slower way to get back down. Spend the money on gear rather...
Happy climbing
Nic

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SuperC
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Re: abseiling 150m

Post by SuperC » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:44 pm

Nic Le Maitre wrote:Here's an idea. Learn how to do a knot pass then beg/borrow enough rope (in several lengths) to do the abseil. Alternatively take up climbing and you'll quickly find that abseiling is the boring but rather dangerous and (mostly) slower way to get back down. Spend the money on gear rather...
Haha , have past a knot on an abseil before as a test(was on a second rope also) , but I really think it isn't the safest way to do it and I am scared I'll sh!t myself in mid air. Don't have a problem with buying a rope , it's just that I still want to climb for many moons. And really not going to trust someone else's gear for that.

I've been looking at this rope:http://www.mytendon.com/rope-static-10-5#scroll and going to cost just over 3k for 180m.

While most climbers prefer to walk down as this is the safer way , I am going to walk up & abseil down. Also into climbing , but since it is on our farm there isn't any routes there. It's close to the maskam routes in vanrhynsdorp , and I have made contact and apparently the sandstone differs from place to place so not taking chances.

The waterfall I WAS planning abseiling off looks like this and is apparently 180m and is bone dry normally
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