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 Post subject: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:50 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
EDIT: [So Ive been asked to 'alter my tone' as some ppl are all upset by this thread. For those of you just starting to read this - it has been edited. I will also take this opportunity to say that the ppl who want things like this discussed 'privately outside of a public forum' should follow their convictions and contact me directly if they take exception to something Ive said rather than going behind my back and swaying the opinion of my friends in order to turn them against me!

Again (it was mentioned elsewhere); this post is NOT an attack on ARF or the MCSA, both organisations to which I have volunteered my time on a number of occasions (Im not an MCSA member but have still helped out at work meets), but simply a question about the type of anchor we are installing.]

I feel that ARF are installing the wrong anchors at our sport crags. There is a much better, safer, more sustainable and cheaper(? - not, as it turns out) option:

Think about this - why would you want to undo your primary safety attachment (the ROPE! - of all things) at the highest possible point on a route??? Why open up all those possible avenues for an accident? Why waste time fiddling around to clean anchors - putting yourself at risk of making a mistake, when you could simply clip in and lower immediately, saving loads of time and energy? Not to mention being totally safe.

Abseil anchor

Image

Sport anchor

Image

The biners on these anchors are made from the same steel used in the bull hooks on construction cranes - they are TOUGH! They are specifically designed to handle the wear of top-roping and lowering. The biners are replaceable. The sets are actually R5 cheaper than the abseil rings per unit.

The steel used in the abseil anchor however is soft by comparison and is NOT designed to handle lowering/top-roping. Im told the rings apparently rotate when the rope is pulled through, spreading the wear - unfortunately in reality this does not happen! (Inspect the rings of most routes next time you climb - nice shiny patch in one place only right? = NO rotation). The rings are NOT replaceable.

- lets use the right gear guys!


Last edited by XMod on Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:46 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:04 pm
Posts: 42
Real Name: Wesley Williams
The way I do it, I am never off belay when I am cleaning the route (Tie a second figure of 8 knot into a screwgate on your harness connected to the last bolt, then untie the anchors) . But that would be nice to have.


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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:04 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:03 am
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Cuan Lohrentz
Agreed...It would be awesome to start using these anchors :)
I think we did up the ARF budget for next year so perhaps it is time we switched over...maybe CR will allow MCSA to buy them at cost?


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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:51 am
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Location: JHB
Real Name: Nigel Bailes
Here are a few more available options!
Attachment:
AustriAlpin anchors.jpg
AustriAlpin anchors.jpg [ 11.44 KiB | Viewed 2056 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:01 am 
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Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 8:59 am
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Real Name: CityROCK Indoor Climbing Gym
I can't speak for the ARF but I may be able to shed some light on why the ARF didn't go for the carabiner glue-ins from a pricing perspective.

We bought the carabiner glue-ins in 2011 when the Rand was at 9.85/EUR. We worked on a "last cost" basis and decided not to put our prices up on them so they could be more affordable, promote bolting and get them to sell. Yes we still have them after 3 years!

The last time we bought the double ring glue in was in 2013 when the Rand was R11.91/EUR so that's why the comparative pricing is a little skewed.

If we were to bring them again at the current exchange & shipping rates the retail pricing would look something like this:

Carabiner Glue-in R448
Double-ring Glue-in R291

Happy bolting!

Lee


Last edited by climbcityrock on Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:02 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
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Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
For popular routes quick clip anchors are great. Yes people will top rope off them, but they do last a while and if people pitch in they can be replaced.

These are at the top of Quasimodo, Gospel Express and Unforgiven - these top anchors were sponsored by Mountain Mail Order.

The pic below is of Gospel express. The old top anchors (bottom 2 bolts) with the quick clips, are the old bolts.
I drilled another bolt as back up and connected both quick clips to this bolt (the pic is old and there are now two chains in place.

Image

This page is worth a look RE: top anchors :arrow: New Anchors on Gospel Express and Quasimodo

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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:59 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
@ Wesleywt, It is most certainly possible to stay on belay whilst doing the cleaning ritual, even if you have cleaned all the draws you can still clip the rope through a draw on the chains. There a many ways to be safe but its complicated stuff to do when you are pumped, mistakes can happen. With clip-ins mistakes are virtually impossible and its dead simple.

@ Justin, you don't really need draws clipped to those anchors just pop the rope in (I know its just for the pic) - rad to see this system being employed on high turn over routes out there though :thumright

@ Lee, WOAH! :shock: Ok I was fooled by the prices on shelf, Although Im sure you got more stock in recently (?) with no change in price.......... hmm Im gonna snap up those anchors then.....
Are you sure? At that price structure its cheaper to buy the ring anchor, cut off the lower ring and put a biner on instead - strange


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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:16 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Avenant
@ Justin - Should the gates of the steel biners not be facing away from the rock? Or is there a reason they are facing the rock?


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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:18 pm 
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Hi all.... we have had this discussion on many occasions and when ARF was initiated we engaged with the whole climbing community about the entire ARF business plan. Hence Mr Hart I am a little pissed with your belated and misinformed back seat criticism on this forum and FB of the good work that has gone into ARF.

As a reminder to all you good people out there who have helped so much with ARF we decided to use the rings for the following reasons:
- rings are cheaper
- rings wear 8x better as it does not wear on a single point like a biner
- last time I checked there wasn't a rush at the crag?
- if you can't clean a rap station you shouldn't be climbing unsupervised

The important thing to remember here is we had 15 or so bolts breaking which is not something you can control. You can control your own safety while threading a rap station. And correct me if I'm wrong but I have never heard of a good quality rap station failing due to wear.

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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:51 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
Edit


Last edited by XMod on Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:43 pm 
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Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
keen to see, as opposed to... do


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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:28 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
@ Marshall FYI I am one of the poor sods who hangs off ropes replacing bolts with the ARF - I do.


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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:46 pm 
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For those people who seem to be confused as to what the content of this thread actually is about (and Im begin to be inclined to count myself among their ranks) lets rewind.............

Background I am an active ARF member, who as you all know hang off ropes replacing all the dodgey bolts. I think the new equipment is simply splendid and frikkin LOOOOVE clipping the shiny new bombproof pro - anchors included.

Conundrum? The other day shopping for bolts I noted that the twin ring anchors ARF uses were R5 more than the clip-in anchors. Clearly the clip-ins are a way more convenient, safer and equally sustainable solution - so why were we putting in the twin ring anchors?

Somewhat vexed by this apparent conundrum I came on this forum and asked the question "why?" I believe Lee has already answered that question by explaining that the clip-ins are old stock. The present price would be about R50 more for clip-ins per unit, or R100 per anchor set - an appreciable difference. So I can therefore assume that the twin rings were chosen as the most cost effective solution.

People seem to like the idea of the clip-ins, perhaps if one of us wins the lottery we can make that happen - until then Im more than happy to put in the twin ring things even if I will silently curse the rope and general mess at the anchors on occasion and the time it wastes. Time is always a factor as we all want to squeeze in as many routes as possible in the limited free time we have in which to climb. [I wont get into statistics of the collective time wasted by all climbers fiddling around up there and how many more ARF routes could have been equipped already in the same time frame.]


Last edited by XMod on Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
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Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
My thinking is this:

'Clip in' top anchors are great for areas that get crowded, they are fast and simple, which results in less queuing for routes.
Rings will last a lifetime longer than 'clip in' top anchors - think funding.
'clip in' top anchors wear down fast(er than you would think)!

Know how to operate both.
--------------

Then, for my wacky idea :idea: (just to irritate a little ;)

Create a three point anchor in a triangle shape.
The top bolt has a Cold Shut where the rope can be slipped into.
The two bottom bolts both have 'clip in' biners.

There by, all the wear goes onto the Cold Shut. Should the Cold Shut or it's bolt fail, the two 'clip in' biners will take the load
:P

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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:33 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
I would strongly contest your assumption that clip-ins will wear faster Justin. The steel used in the Raumer biners is way more resistant to wear and tear than the steel used for the rings. Those Yachting biners will however wear quite quickly. Obviously the issue here is cost. Anyway Im gonna equip my new lines with clip-ins where I can and think it is desirable from now on.


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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:36 pm 
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Real Name: Warren Gans
@ Justin: Then why don't we have two glue in Ti bolts per draw placement with Ti chain linking the two. We replace these seasonally -because stuff left exposed to the elements for more than that is really dangerous- and ensure they are no more than 0.3m apart (fall factors). The finishing anchors would then be a double of a quick draw placement- ie two sets of two bolts all placed on rock cable secured to pylons. Each route is signed off by a qualified structural engineer, and only installed by a team of level three rope access technicians. Climbers require 1000 hours of supervised tuition before qualifying as a climber. We make it mandatory for everyone to climb on 2 11mm ropes with medical team close at hand in case the gear fails. No one else my be at the crags at the time in case the technicians missed loose rock that may fall on someone (This would be unlikely as they would have glued all rock but the holds in question). I know this seems risky, but then so was your suggestion.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Two bolts as the chains, rings if you're feeling special, but otherwise a mailon through them if you think the route is that popular that wear could be a real concern. I don't know why we are having this conversation though because in the Cape there is no uber-popular routes still needing a rebolt, maybe in a few years Montagu and Hellfire will get some attention. Are we this nit picky and paranoid?!!

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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:20 am 
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Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
XMod wrote:
I would strongly contest your assumption that clip-ins will wear faster Justin. The steel used in the Raumer biners is way more resistant to wear and tear than the steel used for the rings.

I don't have any experience with the Raumer biners (so no argument there). I do know that the steel biners at The Steeple are showing signs of wear.


Warren G wrote:
@ Justin: .... I know this seems risky, but then so was your suggestion.

... maybe in a few years Montagu and Hellfire will get some attention.

Are we this nit picky and paranoid?!!


@Warren: What specifically was it that I said that was dodgy?
When bolts show signs of corrosion, we generally replace them. Take for example Gospel Express, we may have wrongly assumed the bolts were bad, but to be safe, the bolts on both routes were replaced.
After breaking off the bolts on both routes, I decided to leave the Gospel Express top anchors in place and added one new bolt to back up the two old top anchors (bolts).

There are a few routes in Montagu that may require attention.

Below is photo of a bolt in place on one of the easier routes at The Palace.


Attachments:
File comment: Bolt Corrosion
bolt_corrosion_IMG_6633.jpg
bolt_corrosion_IMG_6633.jpg [ 148.92 KiB | Viewed 1831 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:33 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
Warren wot r u waffling about bru? Have you ever watched someone deck and get injured by a faulty gear - I have - not cool!

Justin it might be worth your while trying the Raumer biners at the steeple when the ones there wear 40% or look like they might damage the rope. MMO still has old stock for R100 so not too pricey. Obviously I too have not sat there and conducted scientific tests to ascertain their durability but reading the background on why the engineers chose the material they did for them, they certainly sound like the best solution.

Pic: WOAH massive RED LIGHT that bolt. I don't like the look of the black in that corrosion, way to similar to the bolts that have broken from SCC we've been seeing. Replace asap with a glue-in. To be honest mechanicals are a bit of a waste of time in the Cape, no matter which crag (except perhaps Sandrif/Truitjieskraal/Rooiberg) there is going to be some incoming sea air when the South Easter pomps.

I see at older crags around France all of the bolts are being replaced with the new glue-ins. The new bolts are confidence inspiring, whereas the old bolts instil a feeling of dread in me, like Im playing Russian roulette. Lets endeavour to get the most sustainable and best system in place, we should be trying to maintain the older routes more than open new ones at this time. Just doing popular routes isn't enough, start with them sure (oldest/worst condition first), but they ALL need to done, just because a route isn't that popular does not mean that it isn't a potential death trap. Only doing popular routes is stupid, it just means that easy routes get done and the harder ones (where people are actually more likely to be taking a lot of falls) don't get fixed.


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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:41 am 
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Just a question regarding the pic - are all those parts stainless - otherwise the nut may be experiencing galvanic corrosion - I have certainly seen this on the highveld where people mix a stainless hangar with a plated nut - this will cause rapid visible corrosion like in the pic...

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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:41 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
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Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
Thanks Greg, I've actually got a few sets of top hangers with rings at home, but if anyone would like a route in Montagu to be equipped with top clip in's - get the clips to me and I'd be happy to install them.

The pic of the bolt below is from 'The Neuromancer' at the The Palace and was bolted in 1995 (two years before Gospel Express was bolted).
I'll go an give some torque with a spanner and see whats happens :?: (dodgy bolts make hold on tighter / longer and not take rests :wink:

Old Smelly wrote:
are all those parts stainless - otherwise the nut may be experiencing galvanic corrosion...

In my unprofessional opinion
The Hanger, Yes
The bolt, No
The nut, No

Galvanic corrosion is an electrochemical process in which one metal corrodes preferentially to another when both metals are in electrical contact, in the presence of an electrolyte. This same galvanic reaction is exploited in primary batteries to generate an electrical voltage.
More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:55 am 
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Location: Lagoon Beach
Real Name: Adrian Tregoning
It's likely the nut is "mild steel" and galvanized. Being dissimilar materials this is a serious problem, quite correct that is definitely galvanic corrosion. Rain, or else onshore wind near to the coast would basically add the electrolyte and you have serious problems. Compounded to that I would imagine you'd have accelerated crevice corrosion between the bolt and nut threads. So simply put, chances are high that the nuts threads will strip :?

The amount of pre-load would was applied to the nut is also very important and perhaps something never considered when installing these bolts. I'm an exceptionally inexperienced climber so wouldn't know whether a climber would be up there with a torque wrench or not. My guess, they would not.

I guess my opinion would be regarded as more informed - mechanical engineer. Interesting thread, will be tagging.


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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:20 am 
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Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
Here is a report about a bolt that was broken (in a (semi) controlled manner) - Quasimodo Bolt Corrosion Investigation
The conclusion was that the failure was caused by Wastage Corrosion

- I mention this because both routes were bolted by the same person (albeit 2 years apart) and the bolts could have come from the same supplier!?

AdrianT wrote:
...chances are high that the nuts threads will strip :?

I'm guessing the nut has probably fused to the bolt by this time!?

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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:45 am 
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 Post subject: Re: ARF top anchors
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:59 pm 
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