Bolts

Ask. Answer. Discuss. Any bolting related issues.
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CraigS93
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Real Name: Craig saunders

Bolts

Post by CraigS93 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:51 pm

What bolts to use if the crag is by the sea ??

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proze
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Re: Bolts

Post by proze » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:15 pm

Google is amazing. :)

In Thailand they started retrobolting with hideously expensive titanium because everything else got munched.

BAbycoat
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Re: Bolts

Post by BAbycoat » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:01 pm

Craig,

Great question to ask. If you're not totally sure you're using the right bolts, you probably shouldn't be bolting in the first place.

The best bolts available these days are Titan Eterna glue-ins with Hilti RE-500 glue. But it's crazy expensive, may raise visibility concerns, and could be overkill.

What you need depends on where you're bolting. There is some discussion within the UIAA of classifying crags and bolts, but I wouldn't expect any formal guidelines for some years yet.

Some pointers to consider: where are you bolting? what's the rock type? Overhanging or on-angle? What aspect? What's the ambient air temperature? and sea temperature? How close to the sea? How much spray? How much mist?

Use the best bolts you can afford. Rather open a few quality routes than a ton of mediocre routes which rust away after a few years.

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XMod
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Re: Bolts

Post by XMod » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:31 am

At Uvongo? You should use glue-in bolts in such a salty environment, even high quality mechanical anchors will not last.

The Raumer steel glue-ins supplied by Mountain Mail Order should be fine. Titanium bolts are obviously better but at 10GBP each plus postage (they are made in the UK and not available locally) it will set you back a bit!!

For glue the Fischer FIS V 360S Vinyl-epoxy is the best one to use. Its half the price of Hilti's RE500 and a lot easier to work with. RE500 is corrosive so actually corrodes the surface of the bolts (this is not a bad thing however as it creates a barrier from further oxidation [rust]). The Fischer glue sets in a few hours RE500 takes two to three days to cure (unless the weather is really really hot).

Glue in bolts require special care to place correctly and unless you have been trained to do this properly I would advise you don't! Any mistake in placement will make a compromised anchor - with no way of testing/checking its security.

IMO beaches are for surfing, swimming and sun-tanning. Go climb in the hills rather - away from salty air.

BAbycoat
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Re: Bolts

Post by BAbycoat » Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:06 pm

Here's a link to an interesting thread on seaside bolt failure.

Admittedly it's not South Africa, but the conditions are similar. And the failure list is longer than my risk tolerance.

Raumer 316 might last 10 years. Titanium should last 50 years. Both require experience of placing glue-ins.

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Turtle
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Re: Bolts

Post by Turtle » Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:42 pm

My answers are for whats available for SA right now.
First choice: Raumer glue in bolts, and use the Fischer FIS V 360S glue, as Xmod said.
(IMHO i think the Raumer glue ins might go double lifespan-wise to what BAbycoat said)

Second choice: Fischer FBN 90 x 10mm expansion bolts - but this is the way lesser choice because of all the moving parts, for placements near the coast so maybe only consider the glue ins.
The FBN bolts are way more viable inland, and slightly less expensive all in.

The best consists out of the following:
Good rock.
Best glue.
Best bolt.
Expertly placed/spaced.

And yes, Titanium bolts will be the best, but they are not available(yes?) in SA. Also only an option if they are fully tested and approved by the UIAA.
No other options exists, do NOT even consider other stuff, except for the Hilti glue maybe.

Dragon
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Re: Bolts

Post by Dragon » Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:25 pm

Guys I know its more expensive in the short term, but Titanium is the only sustainable solution if we are going to put in bolts. If you look at the damage done to the rock when routes have to be bolted and rebolted again and again over time ( I have seen Thailand first hand where they have a rapid turnover) it gets ridiculous with bolts of various generations and scars etc all over the place. Thailand have seen the light. Rather raise the funds and bolt with Titanium glue ins (and hope no low-lifes start harvesting them in true South African form) and you have a solution that will last many generations. Thread throughs and removable bolts are other options, but that is a whole other debate.

BAbycoat
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Re: Bolts

Post by BAbycoat » Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:10 pm

Titanium isn't always the solution for every crag ... but it sounds like it is the solution for this crag. I'm with Dragon on this one.

The new Eterna is a Buhler-type design - so avoids the welds which caused problems with previous Ti "P"-bolts. It's a clean and simple design which I trust. If memory serves me right, I don't believe the UIAA actually tests bolts. Anyway, what do you want to test? - we know Ti is stronger and more durable than steel. But the Eternas are pricey.

Comes back to XMod's point - is the crag worth the investment in time and money?

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Turtle
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Re: Bolts

Post by Turtle » Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:33 pm

Ok, my bad re the UIAA, I assumed. I assume also that places like Raumer and Fixe will have strenuous test in place on some intense standards to ensure the safety of their products. Maybe an En or CE certification? Point is, do not use some obscure product no-one knows about. Do not use oom Piets galvanised 6mm screw in wood bolts he made in his garage. Thats how the olden okes used to do it. We mos have technology now.

BAbycoat
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Re: Bolts

Post by BAbycoat » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:31 am

@Turtle ... totally agreed that we should use quality bolts (which the ARF does).

On certification ... as far as I know, the UIAA put out a standard in conjunction with CEN - UIAA123/EN959. But CEN does the testing, and if it passes then it can carry the UIAA stamp. So the UIAA have effectively outsourced their testing the CEN. (CE testing is self-certified, so of less value).

CEN testing is expensive, so not all manufacturers get the cert. Here is a shop which exceeds EN959 in their in-house tests. The products are excellent, even if they don't have that four letter stamp.

Here's the rub: I believe the EN standard doesn't cover longevity, only strength at the time of installation. Most off-the-shelf hardware could carry the UIAA stamp, which doesn't make them appropriate for seaside installation.

And that's probably why the UIAA is developing the bolting guidelines (discussed in this article).

Andy Davies
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Re: Bolts

Post by Andy Davies » Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:40 am

I see some numbers for anchor lifespan being stated. Please can we have a basis for these numbers?
AndyDavies

BAbycoat
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Re: Bolts

Post by BAbycoat » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:15 pm

@Andy,

For the Raumers my estimate is an unscientific, unproven opinion of 316 longevity in an area affected by seaspray. And that's informed by online documentation of experience at Tonsai, Long Dong, Hong Kong, Cayman Brac and Hawaii, infused with Angele's experimental results on SCC, spiced with Craig's concerns over the existing five-year-old bolts and topped with the observations coming in on Martin's testing on Khao Yai. And I'm happy to be proven wrong on this.

The Titan Eterna "has a minimum expected life in excess of 50 years". Expectations are that the glue will fail before the metal. 50 years comes the rating of RE-500 (which I believe is longer than the rating of any other glue out there). I hope I live long enough to see the testing!

CraigS93
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Real Name: Craig saunders

Re: Bolts

Post by CraigS93 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:08 pm

Thanks for the reply guys , the crag would be great to invest in , if we could get more climbers on the coast , which there arnt.

Went to the crag on Saturday , had to place some trad gear rather . As I found the anchors are rusted badly . Hanger bolts look fine but inside that concerns me ..

Main thing is that if I can get climbers on the coast then can all contribute towards getting proper bolts etc . Would be great .

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