muggings: be prepared

General climbing discussions. Climbing, Bouldering, Mountaineering. Anything!!
**Keep the arguments to the suject, not the members!
mokganjetsi
Posts: 1250
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
Location: Cape Town

muggings: be prepared

Postby mokganjetsi » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:08 am

guys, the recent spate of muggings in the cape peninsula has seen some online tiffs as to what we are to do. now the disclaimer: my views are mine and i do not suggest that anybody take any course of action unless they are prepared for it and happy to face the consequences. good.

i'm pretty sure the police and TMNP can't extinguish the problem - the mountain is too big, there's too many access points and ample places to hide + getaway routes. if we going to deal with this in the short term it's up to mountain users. two things i think is workable:
1. stop being soft & lucrative targets
2. have a community alert system in place that alerts mountain users if there's an emergency in their vicinity.

we know the benefits of going out in groups, being alert, not carrying valuables etc. the next thing is to consider what to do if a mugging happens - one is to comply and it will in all likelihood be the safest option for you; i've however decided to resist if i feel i have a reasonable chance to not get seriously hurt.

i'm definitely arming myself and prefer non-lethal force (although i have been warming up to the idea of a glock 17).

it seems to me the best pepper spray is SWAT and reading a bunch of user reviews it comes out tops in terms of effectively immobilising an attacker. cyclists prefer the "direct stream" since it can be sprayed while cycling without disseminating in the wind; the "fog / mist" is more for close encounters where aiming can be difficult. it can be bought online here: http://www.security-store.co.za/catalog ... rays-78221

there's other options like stun-guns and tazers (expensive and big), stuff that involves blades and batons (heavy; requires physical engagement) or a proper firearm (expensive, licencing, lethal). pick your fancy.

i'm not going to cower or rage about this problem; i'm preparing to defend myself & others. that's all :thumright

mokganjetsi
Posts: 1250
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
Location: Cape Town

Re: muggings: be prepared

Postby mokganjetsi » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:18 am

http://www.thehubsa.co.za/forum/topic/1 ... n-suburbs/

"Make: Silver Bullet: Volunteer stayed upright and although in discomfort could answer a number of questions accurately and perform tasks without impediment. 80% Functionality after 1 & 1/2 minutes.

Make: SWAT: Volunteer went down on his knees and was not able to answer any question nor perform any tasks for a period of about 3 minutes. 80% functionality after 5 minutes."

I see some guys also swear by this: http://www.sabrered.co.za/pepper-spray/ ... -p-22.html

User avatar
GClamp
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:23 pm
Real Name: Grant L

Re: muggings: be prepared

Postby GClamp » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:36 am

Hi Willem

I agree with you. We must stop being easy targets.

If a potential-mugger sees you hiking with a Panga in your hand, I think he is going think twice before attempting to mug you. Its basic risk over reward. If I was a mugger I would rather go mug the unsuspecting tourist on Lions Head than some guy walking around armed with a panga.

I always hike and go climb with a blunt weapon, however when I get back to SA I will be purchasing pepper spray and a pepper gun.

I don't really see much other choice. That other incident with the bike mugging where they tried to kill/stab that guy after he had given his bike over made my mind up over the whole compliance vs resistance.

The only problem with climbing is that someone can be up on a route when you are approached by a mugger. How do you deal with a situation like that, pretty difficult.

It's ridiculous that we have to even discuss this but it is just the situation that we live in.

I think it is important though to discuss possible scenarios and reactions with your climbing buddies before heading out. Discuss how you are going to react in the scenario. If people are uncomfortable with you fighting back then at least they can make the decision not to go out with you before getting into that scenario. I would be comfortable with my climbing buddies making a run for it, while I confront the muggers.

I would say it is also important to be aware. I have gone by myself to Peers Cave a number of times. On the walk in I have my weapon in my hand. When I get there I climb up to the top and leave my stuff up top and hidden. I survey the area, take a little walk around, just to see who else is around.

This is just my 2 cents but all I am trying to say is be prepared. If you think compliance is the best option I can respect that decision, just don't take valuables out with you. If you want to fight back make sure others know that.

User avatar
henkg
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:21 am
Real Name: Henk Grobler

Re: muggings: be prepared

Postby henkg » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:36 pm

These could be hardened criminals, who most likely have seen more violence than you. If you resist, use overwhelming lethal force. The bark of a fire arm stops everyone in his tracks. I 'm not sure pepper spray sends a strong enough message or would be effective against multiple assailants. Now try climbing with a fire arm.

Violence begets violence. The idea of reducing incidents by resistance is imho wrong.

Nah, unless it becomes a matter of life and death, I prefer to hand over my stuff. And when it gets to that point, bare hands and rocks would have to suffice
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

User avatar
GClamp
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:23 pm
Real Name: Grant L

Re: muggings: be prepared

Postby GClamp » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:52 pm

henkg wrote:Nah, unless it becomes a matter of life and death, I prefer to hand over my stuff. And when it gets to that point, bare hands and rocks would have to suffice


That is your opinion and I respect that. I am well aware that resisting you will likely end up injured or dead, it is not a nice thought. It is to easy to play these scenarios out in your mind and think everything is going be ok but in most likely hood it won't.

All I am trying to say above is that discuss these things before heading out with your buddies. Therefore at least you have some idea of how you will react when in that scenario. Then people can make an informed decision before heading out.

The merits of resisting versus compliance have already been discussed and I don't think it is worth going into them again in this thread.

User avatar
henkg
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:21 am
Real Name: Henk Grobler

Re: muggings: be prepared

Postby henkg » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:29 pm

Methinks I will invest in an agressive dog and teach it to be a good crag dog. :evil:
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

User avatar
robertbreyer
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:54 pm
Real Name: CityROCK

Re: muggings: be prepared

Postby robertbreyer » Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:00 am

Yes Wilem, it does appear as though CityROCK/MMO is going to have to start stocking pepper spray.
Unfortunately I am serious.

I would go even further and participate in setting an ambush on Skorsteenskop if the reports of another mugging up there are in fact correct.

- Robert

mokganjetsi
Posts: 1250
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
Location: Cape Town

Re: muggings: be prepared

Postby mokganjetsi » Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:28 am

henkg wrote:I 'm not sure pepper spray sends a strong enough message or would be effective against multiple assailants.

jip if 6 guys with guns come at you, you might as well spray yourself in the face. it could give them a good laugh and save your life :wink:

henkg wrote:Violence begets violence. The idea of reducing incidents by resistance is imho wrong.

agree somewhat - i do not see violence getting to the root of the problem. but i would like the means to stop an attacker if they're coming at me / others with the intent to harm.

robertbreyer wrote:I would go even further and participate in setting an ambush on Skoorsteenskop if the reports of another mugging up there are in fact correct.

count me in

:mrgreen:

Old Smelly
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:21 pm

Re: muggings: be prepared

Postby Old Smelly » Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:52 am

Sponsored Sniper

I do not believe that all of us are trained or able to deal with "criminal elements" and if one takes a knife or pepper spray to a gunfight it is always problematic.

I know I suggested this for Boven and you can decide if I am only partly serious or not. The idea of a sniper that takes down those that threaten life and intend grievous bodily harm can only be proposed in an environment where law enforcement and an escalation of violence threatens the functioning of normal everyday people's lives. In this case a few well placed snipers are a very feasible response. Such a sniper would be contracted via a cut -out and would be paid via bank account where people who feel sufficiently endangered can contribute. The sniper doesn't have to eliminate every threat, because once it is known that attackers can be eliminated at any given time they will not venture out to threaten innocent victims lives. This is not a case of being judge and jury in truth as once they have set out to attack someone with violence and aggression they have made this choice themselves.

As to not carrying anything of value - there are recorded cases in the Magaliesberg where the muggers became violent when they found nothing of value. I strongly believe that if you allow yourselves to be victims you will encourage these violent muggings and it will not be long before it will not just be your valuables they want... Think about it. Unfortunately it does not take one long to realise that aggressors/ psychotics don't care if you are a pacifist or not - they just take what they want!

There is no question that doing nothing will only encourage bolder attacks. If we want to go and enjoy the outdoors then we need to take action - clearly there is no hope in expecting the authorities to deal with it. Any one else got ideas?
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

User avatar
proze
Posts: 393
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:57 am
Real Name: Paul P
Location: CT

Re: muggings: be prepared

Postby proze » Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:17 am

Old Smelly wrote:There is no question that doing nothing will only encourage bolder attacks. If we want to go and enjoy the outdoors then we need to take action - clearly there is no hope in expecting the authorities to deal with it. Any one else got ideas?

Unfortunately this seems to be the case. Doing nothing doesn't change anything. Recently a climber brought a pickaxe handle to the crag. It's better than a knife because it can be wielded from a bit of distance. Half a dozen able-bodied climbers with strong thick moer-stokke would surely deter anyone who wasn't armed with a firearm?

User avatar
henkg
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:21 am
Real Name: Henk Grobler

Re: muggings: be prepared

Postby henkg » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:50 pm



I like this:

"most assaults will take place from a distance of 12 to 20 feet. And we know it takes approximately 2 seconds for an attacker to cover that distance. Recognising a threat and responding may be automatic and seem instantaneous, but it’s not. Not with a dog, a handgun or any other means of self defence. It takes 5/8 of a second for your brain to recognize a threat and initiate a response. That’s if your response is automatic. Your dog requires the same synapse in his or her brain to connect the incoming information with the appropriate response... The attacker has the upper hand... Owners are taught their first reaction in any situation is to move. Move both away and off the line of attack. This by itself buys seconds....

As you begin to move you issue the command to “Secure.” ...This buys additional time... Your dog performs six separate behaviors as a result of that one command to “Secure”:
· Your dog immediately runs to your side.
· Your dog analyses the situation (for the potential threat) as he or she approaches
· Your dog “turns on” aggressively toward the potential threat.
· Your dog remains by your side, “turned on” until told otherwise.
· Your dog moves with you forward, backward or sideways without the need for you to hold his collar or leash.
· Your dog positions him or herself between your body and the threat. "

http://www.africak9.co.za/index.php/fam ... ng-program

and this:

"This is followed by teaching the dog that if all parts of the body are available, he or she should strategically target the inside of the upper right arm and/or shoulder. As most people are right-handed (85 percent of the population) the odds are good that this strategic bite will immobilize the weapon hand. This area also provides greater physical leverage and inflicts significant pain because of a nerve bundle in the armpit." :thumleft:
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

Old Smelly
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:21 pm

Re: muggings: be prepared

Postby Old Smelly » Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:32 am

I like it! I want one!
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

User avatar
Justin
Posts: 3235
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
Real Name: Justin Lawson
Location: Montagu
Contact:

Re: muggings: be prepared

Postby Justin » Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:25 pm

Things are happening in the background...

Tourism, safety MECs to meet over Table Mountain attacks

Tourism, safety MECs to meet over Table Mountain attacks
Cape Town - Western Cape Tourism MEC Alan Winde is set to meet with his community safety counterpart this week following a spate of attacks in Table Mountain National Park.

“The meeting will go ahead this Friday and from there they will engage with various stakeholders,” spokesperson Bronwynne Jooste said on Tuesday.

“One of the issues he and [provincial] Minister Dan Plato will be looking at is re-energising the Table Mountain Safety Forum.”

Continue reading: http://www.webmail.co.za/latest-news/to ... in-attacks
Climb ZA - Administrator
justin@climbing.co.za


Social Media

     

Return to “General Postings”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests