Peers Cave

New Areas. New routes. Retrobolting. Add-ons. Re-grading. etc.
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henkg
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby henkg » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:01 pm

Silly question, but did they grab you or held the knife to your throat? Were they in front and behind you? Would it be at all feasible to run off?

This thing is always in my mind when I walk in/out, trying to imagine my reaction. Co-operating is probably the best, but damn I am sure I can outrun/outscramble them. And then also, once they make off, grab some head piercing brick size rocks, follow at a safe distance and fire! I think I can run them till they puke. Is this practicable?

The way I see it, you need to agree with your partners on the best reaction. Would be silly to run off, leaving your partner high and dry.
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

ShaolinWood
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby ShaolinWood » Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:42 am

aaaah man. This sucks so much.
These bastards are always there to spoil a good thing. Heard about some break ins at Silvermine as well.

I always go out there on my own so it's a bit of a worry. I never carry anything valuable with me...but they don't know that.
Sorry to hear about this. Hope we can beat this in some way...
Cheers
Gerhard

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proze
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby proze » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:37 am

henkg wrote:damn I am sure I can outrun/outscramble them

With a pack?

JonoJ
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby JonoJ » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:14 am

Chris F wrote:
Stu wrote:Image


Possibly a tad excessive, ..............


You've been out of the country a while, haven't you? :wink:

Probably best/easiest to set traps, behead the f***ers, bury their bodies, and go home for tea. No-one will miss and report these lowlifes!

I'm all up for starting a guerrilla crew. The authorities can't and won't do a thing to help us.

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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby JonoJ » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:19 am

Right! Money where my mouth is.


Today is the launch of CAM (Climbers Against Muggers).

Email me on onsightafrica(at)gmail(dot)com and let's get an action group going. I can't be the only climber here with infantry training.

Cheers
Jono

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100dgrs
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby 100dgrs » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:44 am

Gangs of New York!!

Climbers vs Muggers .... Im there count me in

:D

Someone needs to teach these guys a lesson!

Streaky
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby Streaky » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:15 pm

Jono - will the Cam be your self defence weapon, and if so what size?

Chris F
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby Chris F » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:43 pm

JonoJ wrote:You've been out of the country a while, haven't you? :wink:


Yeah, probably. Shit was bad when I was living there, then it got better, now it looks like it's getting worse than it ever was.

I think my artillery training would be useful with henkg's rock lobbing option, but not sure how accurate I would be from here!

Hexes would be more effective than cams. Keep it old school.

oubaas
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby oubaas » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:55 pm

Tsk tsk tsk. Climbers are easy prey and no the police wont do anything, and yes it will continue to happen and yes it will happen in other areas. It really is a losing battle. I would love to know how many areas in the country have had incidents over the years of and have actually been declared no go zones due to some sort of criminal activity. A few weeks ago a climber was mugged at a crag in waterval boven and the response from one of the local climbers was something to the effect of "it was only a minor opportunistic incident "or something like that. WTF really! When do opportunistic activities qualify as actual criminal activities? Having ones wallet stollen? or perhaps being carved up like a shwarma. I dont know

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henkg
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby henkg » Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:17 pm

proze wrote:
henkg wrote:damn I am sure I can outrun/outscramble them

With a pack?


Gladly hand over your stuff especially your gear and heavy pack. Then let them get away ... almost...
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

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Stefan Smeda
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby Stefan Smeda » Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:38 pm

I Wish I got myself one of these things when the website still existed.
It's called a handi blaster. Handheld flame thrower.

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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby Chris F » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:10 pm

A blowtorch would probably be equally as effective.

Get medieval on their asses.

neorich
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby neorich » Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:36 pm

proze wrote:
henkg wrote:damn I am sure I can outrun/outscramble them

With a pack?


That's the thing - I had enough gear on me to slow me down, and the last thing I wanted was a knife in my back to make me stop. They got away with the gear (which was 5 hours old ... WTF!), but obviously thought it contained a cache of cellphones, as you do...
If I had no gear I would've run. How often does one have no gear though???

henkg wrote:Silly question, but did they grab you or held the knife to your throat? Were they in front and behind you? Would it be at all feasible to run off?

This thing is always in my mind when I walk in/out, trying to imagine my reaction. Co-operating is probably the best, but damn I am sure I can outrun/outscramble them. And then also, once they make off, grab some head piercing brick size rocks, follow at a safe distance and fire! I think I can run them till they puke. Is this practicable?

The way I see it, you need to agree with your partners on the best reaction. Would be silly to run off, leaving your partner high and dry.


They were in front of me and tried to stab my leg after they pushed me backwards into the bushes when I resisted handing over the gear. I changed my mind of course. We could've probably overpowered them if we were expecting it, but who knows whether one has a gun and if they are indeed alone? I think the most important thing a group can do is decide together on a course of action beforehand.
We were taken by surprise and that's exactly what they rely on.

Chris
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby Chris » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:11 pm

maybe I'm a bit of a wuzz, but no amount of gear is worth your life. Problem is some tik head with a knife is always going to be more desperate than you and you never know what they might end up doing or even just get a lucky stab off in your direction. Very few people have gotten hurt handing their gear over, most injuries so far in the cape was received while resisting. It's easy to say, I haven't been in the situation yet and might be pissed enough to tell the dude to f#$k off, hopefully I won't...

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nousername
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby nousername » Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:29 pm

They were in front of me and tried to stab my leg after they pushed me backwards into the bushes when I resisted handing over the gear. I changed my mind of course. We could've probably overpowered them if we were expecting it



US knife statistics from the 1980's showed that a police officer does not stand a chance against a knife holding aggressor, if the aggressor is within 7 feet (3 meter), and the officer has not already drawn a firearm. The officer cannot draw and shoot in the time it takes the aggressor to complete a distance of 3 meters.

Translated this means that you MUST have your pepper spray, hiking poles , No. 9 hex IN YOUR HAND when the aggressor is within 3 meters of you! Comprende?

but who knows whether one has a gun and if they are indeed alone? ....



When an aggressor(s) with a knife is within 3 meters of you, you're last thought should be what if's. Your life is in immediate danger! Google a few pictures of knife attacks, and the quality of life afterwards. Deal with the one closest to you and watch the other run.

Fake a group. Shout something to your non-existing buddies. Use your imagination , something horible criminal reverse like “ Hey guys! Wanna rape some strangers?"

...We were taken by surprise and that's exactly what they rely on.



Do not wait to be surprised - reflex, drill and training should enable you to react without notice and surprise THEM. This does take preparation and practise.

Make a stand (reverse- intimidation), refuse to comply and defend first, do not wait. THIS will surprise any attacker, since they do not expect you to attack them. Watch them run, honestly do the unexpected and see results. (read the positive story below in this post)

Most people don't want to be prepared. So have climbers even bothered to practice getting a hiking pole, pepper spray, 9 hex in the ready position yet? And how fast can it be done?

Possibly a tad excessive, but even just carrying a walking stick / ski pole / (sjambok?) makes you look like a less of a target to opportunistic criminals? And arming yourself with pepper spray or a similar defensive weapon is better than nothing, as is going for the strength in numbers option?



This is true and not excessive, be prepared or prepare to loose something.

CAM (Climbers against Muggers)

The below may possibly be a t(r)ad excessive, but you need to decide what you are willing to do, or willing to loose.

As a way of training against a mind state called “fright freeze”. Where shock due to increased levels of adrenaline renders a person (victim) useless to think and react (in the absence of drill for such an event), that fake attacks amongst climbers be used as an exercise for the real thing.

It would improve reflex, function under stressful situations, and increase the chance of success against an attack/mugging etc.

This should be done with all the climbers participating consent, and take care against “cry wolf “ sindrome.

Positive stories

Have anyone successfully prevented an mugging/attack. And published the event on social media or forums? Since long term 'negative media' indoctrinates the masses to believe that they are powerless. (read im a looser and got mugged vs. im a hero and they did not manage to mug me). Please, honestly no direct reference or insult intedended towards the original poster. I am stating that negative indoctrination breeds a powerless society.

Anyone staging an exercise, drill or reactive practice may decidedly use the detail in the below story as mockup practice.

A positive story
So not so long time ago on a trails near the sea, two xhosas, one carrying a resemblance of a gun (home made "zip" gun), the other a panga. Materialized in front of me on a muddy uphill trail demanding money. Whereby I replied “WTF do you think you are doing?” in a authoritive voice. I got a menacing grin and the pangaman got out his leatherman in the other hand as well. His friend still aiming his “gun” at my eyes.

“Money” comes the demand again. With a “NO” loud and clear as an answer.

The gunner did not shoot by now and the pangaman started his intimidation movements, funny how slow things can happen at times (read no fright freeze). Ignoring the gun that should have shot by now my full attention shifted to the panga.So he lifts his panga and I take few steps backwards. He lowers his panga and move forwards, and lifts it again. Idiot. On the 3d repetition he doubled over forwards. After a good stab to the pancreas and groin. (tungsten tipped hiking poles). Just out of reach for a followup orientation protocol the aggressor took an interest to look for blood and to do so with utter disbelief in his eyes. Me on the other hand mostly running in one place on a muddy spot without gaining any distance motivated to finalize this matter. Now that the imminent danger has been dealt with (with me still running on the spot), my hiking buddy decided get out his camera and get some active action evidence. I never saw people run that fast. They (read xhosas) where afraid of a camera.
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Stu
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby Stu » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:29 pm

Guys, if you're really gonna try and defend yourselves you gotta have a plan. If they do catch you off-guard, telling the attacker to f*ck is probably not the way. Might just get a knife in your belly for your troubles as neorich suggested.

You gotta act submissive and even scared, plead for your life if need be. Let him feel he's in control. Then when he's a little more at ease, remove the blade from the stick and either shove it right through him, or get real downright mean and do your best growling bad-ass Al Pacino impersonation, cussing and all.

Of course if there are two or three guys (there usually are) or a gun things could get real ugly and it's best to just cooperate or turn tail and ru-uuun :bounce:

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Jones46
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby Jones46 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:52 am

Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment.

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Justin
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby Justin » Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:31 am

WRT to the fighting back being mentioned here: My opinion is don't do it unless you have the correct training - otherwise its like a non climber going climbing - dangerous.
Chris makes a valid point about guys being on Tik - their minds are severely altered and they will be physically stronger!

At one of the Table Mountain Safety Action Group public meetings a mountain biker who had been mugged talked about how very quickly the guys came out and surrounded them (giving them no time to react)!

My dad who walks quite a bit has noticed when his group sit just a couple of meters off the path, other walkers do not notice them at all (partly due to the walkers not looking, but also because just a little bit of bush provides so much cover).

Somewhere in the Cape there was a story of a guy who fired off a shot to scare away his attackers - it worked. However it is illegal to carry a firearm in a SANPark.

This whole thing really pisses me off... I often get asked to recommended walking routes to clients/friends in the Cape / on Table Mountain... I always wander if I might be sending someone to get mugged or killed :?

Remember, people have been killed for far less! Be careful out there!

For the latest updates on TM and peninsula muggings signup to Table Mountain Watch on Twitter (because SANParks says there is no problem, unless you take photos without a permit :roll:
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Catherine
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby Catherine » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:22 am

I'm in! I have a personal grudge against tik kops bearing knives!!!!!

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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby zabullet » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:06 am

A trick I think helps (don't really know if it does), is to use the military concept of dispersion. When walking (or marching as the case may be) don't be close to each other. Keep each other in sight, but keep 4 or so meters between each of you. The longer the column the harder it is to get surrounded and I suspect creates a less attractive target.

2c.

zb.

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nousername
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby nousername » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:30 pm

You gotta act submissive and even scared, plead for your life if need be. Let him feel he's in control. Then when he's a little more at ease....


The above-mentioned is sometimes effective.


The bodies ability to produce adrenaline in quick succession and the time it takes to alternate between high stress and relaxed states is relevant.

Let's argue that physiologically the body may need three seconds to change from a highly stressed state to a relaxed state (lesser stressed state). The aggressors body language will indicate when this happen. Therefore you may have to 'act out your part of the play' and keep talking for a minimum of three seconds.

There exist doubt if the above can be implied when the attacker is on drugs like tik.

On the other hand if the aggressor does not respond within the presumed three seconds, be prepared to alter your tactics.

It is uncertain how long it physiologically takes for the aggressor to re-reach a highly stressed state (or to alternate between these states) and perhaps irrelevant, since by then (the first relax state) the aggressor should have already been subdued.

Of course if there are two or three guys (there usually are) or a gun things could get real ugly and it's best to just cooperate or turn tail and ru-uuun


Here we agree to disagree. At least we can agree that we disagree and therefore is in agreement on something. And that is a good start.

Any co-operation with any criminal anywhere may result in torture, injury, death, dehumanization, rape, loss of dignity, permanent disability, disfigurement, loss of income, psychological trauma and/or loss of valuables. To cooperate will not guarantee you anything, you may perhaps die believing in an empty promise. Regardless of the attackers intent or what the attacker may or may not promise to do or not to do. It is therefore in my opinion out of the question.

If gunner really wants your stuff and you run away with it, run in a zig-zag pattern. This will make it more difficult for the gunner to shoot you. Statistically 80 percent of shots fired usually miss the target. Therefore giving you an 80 percent chance of success. Rocks, trees and vegetation (on or of trail) should be utilized to your advantage as cover. Bullets go straight and cannot turn corners, but you can.

My dad who walks quite a bit has noticed when his group sit just a couple of meters off the path, other walkers do not notice them at all (partly due to the walkers not looking, but also because just a little bit of bush provides so much cover).


Translated this means that you MUST have your pepper spray, hiking poles , No. 9 hex IN YOUR HAND when the aggressor is within 3 meters of you! Comprende?


If terrain, politics or permission allows, then a possible preventative measure would be to clear three meters of vegetation on either side of walkways and approach paths.


Pictures

Below is three reasons to take photos.

These identifies a criminal after the fact and help police in the search for said person.

A suspicious person , loiterer, car guard, may be a potential robber and would not dare to commit a crime if such a person is fully aware that a picture of them has been taken BEFORE the act. This can also be done with a camera that does not even have a film inside. The psychological factor of having been identified is a most sufficient deterrent.

A person who objects to a picture being taken automatically becomes a more suspicious person and two extra pictures should be taken in such circumstances. This is where you may decide to politely ask the person for his ID or work permit as well (for picture purposes)

Once a culprit has been apprehended pictures for positive propaganda purposes can be put to great use. Care should be taken to take the picture before “questioning” the aggressor, while the aggressor is still in a good condition.

Other options

Under stress most obvious options are not always utilized. This list is of course non-exhaustive

If you are to be near the ground and there is sand, put this sand in your hand and aim for the eyes.
Same goes for a rock.

If rock or sand is to be near your foot, kick it in a decided effective direction.

A substitute for sand can be found in your chalk bag.

As a rule climbers don’t carry handcuffs, the substitute of which is available in your rack, this can include cable ties, slings, cordlets, belay backups, utility cord etc.

CRIMINAL PROCEDURE ACT 51 OF 1977

This act references among others, Schedule 1 offenses. Be also reminded that under certain circumstances deadly force may be used and when an arrest by a civil person is lawful.

The keywords to look for is:

Assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm
Common assault
Robbery
Theft

Empower yourself without the use of electricity :-)
I can climb any grade... as long as its a 14!

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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby emile » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:09 pm

nousername wrote:If gunner really wants your stuff and you run away with it, run in a zig-zag pattern. This will make it more difficult for the gunner to shoot you. Statistically 80 percent of shots fired usually miss the target. Therefore giving you an 80 percent chance of success. Rocks, trees and vegetation (on or of trail) should be utilized to your advantage as cover. Bullets go straight and cannot turn corners, but you can.


I'm sorta in two minds about the advice you're giving, but ok, fair enough - sounds reasonable and well worth considering. I do feel I need to agree & highlight the running away option, I've heard from knowledgeable persons of even greater odds of success specifically while running away, so well worth giving it a go.

Would not mind knowing your real name, consider letting the rest of us know that too? :thumright

Cheers, have fun, it's holiday!!!

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nousername
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby nousername » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:44 pm

Would not mind knowing your real name, consider letting the rest of us know that too?


I recently have been the unfortunate victim of an armed robbery where the robbers got away with my identity, even though I really would have wanted to I'm powerless to comply with your reasonable request for my real name at present.

Once I have allocated funds for the replacement value of my identity and procured the same, I would be willing to supply it.

Due to this unforeseen expense, donations (to the CAM trust fund) for the publishing of my real name on this forum would be most appreciated.

Surplus monies in the CAM trust would go towards erecting a statue in remembrance of all mugged climbers.

Have a nice festive season!
I can climb any grade... as long as its a 14!

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DamageINC
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby DamageINC » Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:55 am

I am concerned by the "nousernames" and others who offer advice on what they think you should do in situations when confronted by attackers. Unless you have experience or expertise in these situations, this is simply your anecdotal opinions and should so be stated.

Example:
Any co-operation with any criminal anywhere may result in torture, injury, death, dehumanization, rape, loss of dignity, permanent disability, disfigurement, loss of income, psychological trauma and/or loss of valuables.


By interpretation, you are suggesting to the reader to resist all criminals or in no way co-operate? In my opinion, every situations will be different & how you act will determine the outcome of the event. Although co-operating doesn't guarantee anything, I feel that confrontation will almost definitely be met by counter confrontation. If a Bad Guy (BG) is willing to take on several hikers / climbers on a busy trail that are patrolled and often in broad day light (as has happened on Lion's Head and other trails) then one must assume they are aggressors and willing to escalate.

Unless you have a tactical advantage, you are entering a situation where the odds are stacked against you. You are not only endangering yourself, but whoever else is with you!

If gunner really wants your stuff and you run away with it, run in a zig-zag pattern. This will make it more difficult for the gunner to shoot you. Statistically 80 percent of shots fired usually miss the target. Therefore giving you an 80 percent chance of success. Rocks, trees and vegetation (on or of trail) should be utilized to your advantage as cover. Bullets go straight and cannot turn corners, but you can.


Please provide evidence, showing that 80% of shots are off target. From what distance? If the BG has 10 rounds in his/her gun and 80% are off, they will still hit you with 20% of their shots.

If terrain, politics or permission allows, then a possible preventative measure would be to clear three meters of vegetation on either side of walkways and approach paths.


Seriously?

A suspicious person , loiterer, car guard, may be a potential robber and would not dare to commit a crime if such a person is fully aware that a picture of them has been taken BEFORE the act. This can also be done with a camera that does not even have a film inside. The psychological factor of having been identified is a most sufficient deterrent.


Does your camera still use film? Now they know you have a camera - maybe worth stealing. If you are truly worried about suspicious person, do you think it is wise to confront them and try take a picture of them?

This act references among others, Schedule 1 offenses. Be also reminded that under certain circumstances deadly force may be used and when an arrest by a civil person is lawful.

The keywords to look for is:

Assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm
Common assault
Robbery
Theft


Just for more clarity..."under certain circumstances" - only when an imminent threat to your life or other exists can you use deadly force. Robbery itself doesn't automatically qualify the use of deadly force. Ex - if someone grabs your bag and runs away, you may not shoot them. This act has been amended from 1977 - where robbery and common assault were classed as schedule 1 offenses.

I realise we all use these forums to vent our frustrations about muggers, but be careful about what advice you offer to others (males, females, people of different physic, fitness and self defence ability) in an infinite number of possible scenario's. To simply say - DO THIS in a situations is not an answer and requires weighing up the risk vs benefit. When you draw a weapon in a situation, you must be committed to end someone life.

Don't let your frustrations get in the way of good judgement.
Who Dares...Wins (SAS)
Jacques

Marshall1
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby Marshall1 » Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:06 pm

Opportunity is the key

Limit the criminal's opportunity.
Find your opportunity.

gptsunbeam
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby gptsunbeam » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:33 am

A few things to consider:

Take dogs with you. Leave the climb earlier rather than later: you are the target if you are the last person in the parking lot. Guns and swords are useless if you don't have the proper training. Keep calm, if you get aggressive, they will attack. The skollies' primary weapon is fear. They are also pretty damn scared and are hoping you will just hand your stuff over. Pepper spray: it's cheap, has good range, and it hurts like hell if you if get a solid dosage to the eyes. Don't be a doos, be aware. Paper, rock, scissors.

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Justin
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby Justin » Mon Dec 26, 2011 12:33 pm

Here is the media report about the Peers Cave mugging: Caution urged after mugging on mountain

"Paddy Gordon, head of operations at SA National Parks (SANParks), said Case’s mugging was the first they had heard of in a long time and that it had been a relatively quiet season so far."
Define 'a long time' ? The last one took place about 30 days ago :roll:

"He encouraged people to store emergency numbers on their cellphones."
People are not taking their phones for fear of them being stolen!
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pwnel
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby pwnel » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:47 pm

If you have the money - http://www.taser.com/products/self-defe ... s/taser-c2

Allows you to stay well out of knife range, and to incapacitate even the most tik-crazed mugger. They ain't cheap, and you still have to be very quick and ready. They do get around the lethal force issue. Most people of course believe it won't happen to them and only start thinking about self-defense once they've already been mugged - so I guess few will spend the R6000 on this. And the usefulness in case of a gun-armed mugger is questionable.

I also have the contact details of an excellent Kukri craftsman in Kathmandu (he does mail order), if you want to pull a Crododile Dundee stunt :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01NHcTM5IA4

Stu
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Re: Peers Cave mugging

Postby Stu » Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:25 pm

pwnel wrote:If you have the money - http://www.taser.com/products/self-defe ... s/taser-c2

Nice! Check out the hooks on the end :)

Image

MichaelW
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Safety at Peers Cave

Postby MichaelW » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:59 am

Has anybody been climbing at Peers Cave recently. After the muggings that have been reported there, I am very wary to go climb there. Is it safe?


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