Everest 96 - SA Expedition

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Drifter
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I heard

Postby Drifter » Tue May 08, 2007 3:16 pm

That Cathy O'Dowd comforted a climber she came across on everest whose party had left them for dead. She comforted the climber in their last hours even though sitting down in the snow Cathy O'Dowd herself risked falling asleep and not waking up.

Marshall
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Postby Marshall » Tue May 08, 2007 7:47 pm

I'm confused: If adults of their own free will go to Everest(\"because it's there\" & for other lame or glory reasons), knowing they are risking their lives...why should we care? What is it to us?

Unless we are playing, why do we care who wins a rugby match?

guest
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Postby guest » Wed May 09, 2007 5:26 pm

I'm confused: If adults of their own free will go to Everest(\"because it's there\" & for other lame or glory reasons), knowing they are risking their lives...why should we care? What is it to us?


Because every South African would have proudly looked at them flying the SA flag if all had gone well. It didn't, and people died. Additional to the bad leadership causing a death directly, they further disgraced Saffas by not aiding in the rescue of others, who might have lived. I agree, why should we care?, and, to be honest, I don't really, but when you look at the praise and kudos that Woodall is receiving for his little 'Tao' mission, then it just leaves a sour taste.

Every person has the right to do whatever they please, but unfortunately, we are all Saffas together, and one person's acts can reflect on all of us. Kind of like our own, delightful president disregarding AIDS and crime. It makes us ALL look like fools. But, that's another boring topic altogether.

Woodall shld have his nose punched.

Stu
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Postby Stu » Wed May 09, 2007 6:14 pm

Marshall, this was no ordinary 'rugby match'. The '96 expedition was not a good advertisement for us SA climbers/mountaineers. Sure an expedition can have casualties but this was internationally seen as a disasterous trip, so maybe it's not why we should care but what can be learnt from their mistakes.

Marshall
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Postby Marshall » Wed May 09, 2007 7:14 pm

\"The '96 expedition was not a good advertisement for us SA climbers/ mountaineers.\" What are we trying to sell & to who? Publising pictures of bolted cracks are worse advertising.

It was a disasterous trip, one South African died, was it our disaster?

People choose to climb Everest. It costs big bucks. Therefore they made an effort to be there. Surely they all knew that there are risks. They probrably all own(ed) at least one copy of \"Man of Everest\". They saw the bodies of previous disasterous trips, but continued. Bad choice. Or went down, safe choice, but not without regrets about an opertunity lost.

Stu
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Postby Stu » Wed May 09, 2007 7:42 pm

\"Publising pictures of bolted cracks are worse advertising.\"
That's a bit harsh don't you think.

I was simply responding to \"why we should care\", not trying to sell anything to anyone, but I think we should care because someone died.

The whole expedition was a royal f!ck up, and from what I've read could have been avoided. Yes people die on everest, and if he was simply another statistic then so be it, but there seems to be so much more to this story than mother nature.

guest
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Postby guest » Wed May 09, 2007 8:13 pm

\"Publising pictures of bolted cracks are worse advertising.\"
That's a bit harsh don't you think.


Not really! Are you referring to the pix in SAmountain? Those shocked me.

Marshall, Stu is right. An inexperienced climber died because of a team leader's negligence. It's not about selling ourselves to the rest of the world, however, we are all judged for Woodalls behavior, even though he went in on a Brit pass...he was meant to lead the SA team to victory, instead, he disgraced us all, and let down the sponsor, who in future I'm sure will never drop a cent on anything like this again.

Obviously, everyone knows of the risks, however this is not a disclaimer for the deaths that occurred. It's like when you go surfing, you know that one of the possible things is a shark attack, and you are aware of this. What Woodall did was stand in the boat and watch everyone get eaten by a pack of sharks, not throwing a line, then lead his team into the same waters, and leave the weakest behind to fend for themselves. If this doesnt make an outsider reflect badly on Saffas then I dont know what will. You must remember that the 96 event was globally covered and everyone knew what had happened.

It was a disasterous trip, one South African died, was it our disaster?


Yes, one of our own citizens died, that is a disaster for his family and loved ones. I think some compassion is in order. You must remember that Woodall had lied about everything, including his big mountain experience, so Bruce Herrod would have trusted his advice to summit, which lead to his demise, so it's not really about good or bad choices. You put your faith in the leader, just as if it were in a war [you can relate to that!]. It stinks. Tao my @ss!

Anyway, we're going in circles here. That's the end of what I want to say.

Marshall
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Postby Marshall » Wed May 09, 2007 10:15 pm

Guest, Texas rangers would have saved them all. One kick on the ear & send them packing to base camp.

Drifter
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I agree and disagree

Postby Drifter » Thu May 10, 2007 6:30 am

Quote: I'm confused: If adults of their own free will go to Everest(\"because it's there\" & for other lame or glory reasons), knowing they are risking their lives...why should we care? What is it to us?

Unless we are playing, why do we care who wins a rugby match?

Hi Marshall

I agree with you that the saying 'because it's there' makes no philosophy sense. If you look at that phrase 'because it's there' the next question I believe that should be asked is 'So does that mean you have to climb it?' The logical answer to that is no! People climb Everest because they want to not because it is there and therefore they have to climb it.

I disagree with your comment 'Why should we care? What is it to with us? I believe we should care because of humanity. I don't believe in the argument that 'why should we care we are not there' For example I believe people should care what’s happening in Zimbabwe even if they aren't there as this good bring change I believe. I am not looking at this at the moment as climbers with very big egos looking for glory (I do believe alpine climbers have big egos that are looking for glory) but rather looking at this from a humanity point of view, the tragedy that people died up there.

Justin comment about helicopter for rescue is a good one and maybe in the future there will be helicopter back up that could fly to the summit to rescue people.

Drifter
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Guest

Postby Drifter » Thu May 10, 2007 7:08 am

You can't go around punching people in the nose because you don't agree with them.

Drifter
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Correction

Postby Drifter » Thu May 10, 2007 7:15 am

I meant to say it 'makes no philosophical sense'

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oOdball
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Re: Correction

Postby oOdball » Thu May 10, 2007 7:34 am

Drifter wrote:I meant to say it 'makes no philosophical sense'


If you're logged in you can edit (or add additional comments to) your posts using the Edit button...
You have an opinion, so do I. When these differ, please don't confuse your opinion with the truth, nothing is absolute.

mkboy
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Re: I agree and disagree

Postby mkboy » Thu May 10, 2007 8:29 am

Drifter wrote:Quote:

Justin comment about helicopter for rescue is a good one and maybe in the future there will be helicopter back up that could fly to the summit to rescue people.


Ah Drifter, once more boldly you leap into the void without any iota of knowledge/logic to back you up.

For your info, it is physically impossible for a helicopter to fly any where near that high because the air is WAY to thin and as a result it is not an option for rescue. If memory serves there has been one successful attempt at rescue fairly high up but using a heavily modified copter and it could take virtually no payload, Justin's comment was tongue in cheek.

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Justin
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Postby Justin » Thu May 10, 2007 9:29 am

Hi Mkboy,
I wasn't kidding about the helicopter landing on Everest -
See this news item --> Helicopter Lands on Everest and follow the link within for pictures...
Climb ZA - Administrator
justin@climbing.co.za

mkboy
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Postby mkboy » Thu May 10, 2007 9:49 am

Hang on...just wiping the egg off my face :wink:

Sorry Justin, was just trying to make a point, not put words in your mouth, idiot move on my part :)

Will check out the link and educate myself, i wonder if its ever going to be a practical solution though, with the weather and cost etc.

I can see the future now! :wink: ..coming to the point where it is possible to take a heli flight to the summit, get your photo taken and be home at base camp in time for supper ha!ha!

Gonzo
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Postby Gonzo » Thu May 10, 2007 11:26 am

I think there have been about 2 or 3 successfull landings of a helicopter on everest. The helicopter has been stripped of all essentials and where flying at their limits. There is no way a standard helicopter can be used in rescue. The power to weight ratio does not allow additional people, equipment.

There is a group of people who are developing an unmanned helicopter, the rational behind this, is to firstly cut weight, secondly a pilot has no advantage at that altitude, he simply adds weight. There is no way he can assist in the rescue since he has to A) Concentrate very hard on flying the chopper. B) He can not leave the chopper with out supplemental oxygen. (He is not acclimatised to the altitude). This is quite an interesting development. There are plenty of web sites with information on this.

Marshall
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Postby Marshall » Thu May 10, 2007 12:24 pm

Hi Drifter

I do care about suffering in the world. I prefer a book about suffering to a book on climbing. Suffering on Everest is a choice, self inflicted & as some top SA climbers did in 1996, you can walk away. In Zimbabwe the average person in the street is not inflicting, not choosing the infliction & cannot walk away.

Drifter
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Marshall I know you do care

Postby Drifter » Thu May 10, 2007 12:52 pm

Hi Marshall

I know if you came across a bad accident in the road you would try to help and call the emergency service even if the accident was self inflicted because the person was driving too fast. I was just making a general point, I wasn't trying to judge you and I am sorry if it came across like that.

Drifter
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The Website Gonzo mentioned

Postby Drifter » Thu May 10, 2007 1:25 pm


JonoJ
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Re: Marshall I know you do care

Postby JonoJ » Thu May 10, 2007 1:45 pm

Drifter wrote:Hi Marshall

I know if you came across a bad accident in the road you would try to help and call the emergency service even if the accident was self inflicted because the person was driving too fast. I was just making a general point, I wasn't trying to judge you and I am sorry if it came across like that.


....and, hypothetically, if making that call meant a good likelihood you'd die too? Would you still do it?

We'd all (well, most of us, that is) like to assume an air of selflessness, benevolence, and heroism.....but I don't think any of us that haven't been beyond 8000m asl, have any room to judge or comment on the actions of those that have been there.

The lack of oxygen at that altitude surely affects the brain and it's thought processes in ways we simply cannot know unless we've been there. I'd liken it to dropping a cap of Acid and then stumbling upon a dying person...... in my sober state I'd love to say I'd give myself to helping said stiff-to-be survive, but in all likelihood in a tripping-off-my-nut state, I'd probably first be paralyzed in shock, then use what little wits I have left to get away from the gruesome scene, and then finally block the sight from my memory for ever.

But this is all very subjective. Get yourself to 8000m+, and see how you feel before passing judgement.

Drifter
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It’s the cold calculating attitude some people don't like

Postby Drifter » Thu May 10, 2007 3:15 pm

It's the cold calculating attitude not to help because there is a chance (only a chance) that you could die that a lot of people don't like.

It is like a man sees his wife drive off the road into cold lake but instead of jumping in straight away to rescue her he decided not to because there is a chance he could get hyperthermia and die. In a situation like this a lot of people would expect you to act on instinct and not take a step back first and think is there any chance I am a risk if so I am not going to help.

Cathy O’ Dowd took a risk when she sat down in the snow to comfort someone who was dying. She could of fallen asleep and not woken up. What I understand of it, her one person could have not moved the dying climber by herself.

You are right this is all very subjective, you cannot say how someone would act in that situation for certain until they are there, Cathy Dowdy claims as a human being should could not walk away from a climber who was dying and pleading for you not to leave them even though she was told you don’t sit down in the snow to comfort a dying climber as you could fall asleep and not wake up.

I would say sitting down in the snow and having the risk of dying because you fall asleep and don’t wake up for me is not the same fear of death as a car hijacker putting a gun to your head and you think you are going to die or taking a fall like Joe Simpson did and thinking you are going to die.

You are sitting a dangerous precedent when you say a climber can’t be judged for his behavior on the mountain. That means you can do what you like on the and get away with it.

Thanks for your response JonoJ. I think this debate will go on for a long time. Lets agree to disagree as the saying goes.

guest
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Postby guest » Thu May 10, 2007 3:23 pm

Normally, it's only when the weather turns really bad that the accidents start to happen, so, while a 'copter is a great idea in theory, it would be pretty pointless in gale force winds that buffet. Saying this, if it can save one life, then it's worth it.

@Marshall, don't you know anything? Chuck Norris was the first person to solo climb all 7 peaks without oxygen, or any other gear than his usual cowboy boots and jeans. Apparently, he'd just chew on the raw snow without needing to defrost it, and when he summited, he took his shirt off and did some Yoga, then, on the way down, he rescued a party of 8 who were near to death, carrying 4 of them on his shoulders, with the other 4 being dragged behind him on a makeshift sled that he made by hollowing out a huge stone with his fists. On return to base-camp, he was asked if he was bitten at all by the frost, his reply was \"the frost was too scared to bight me, anything that tries to bite me will receive a round house kick to the jaw\". Chuck also climbed K2, and said it was for sissies.

JonoJ, I'm sure some people have tripped on the summit of Everest. I even read a story of a bunch who drank a bottle of Chivas and had a flew lines before they descended.

JonoJ
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Re: It’s the cold calculating attitude some people don't lik

Postby JonoJ » Thu May 10, 2007 4:18 pm

[quote="Drifter"]

You are sitting a dangerous precedent when you say a climber can’t be judged for his behavior on the mountain. That means you can do what you like on the and get away with it.
quote]

Just saying that only those that have been up to that altitude have any right to judge behaviour up there. You try telling George Forman to jab when he's blocking....... he'll laugh at you - then probably jab you!!...because you have no idea what he's going through right then. Observationaly yes, but subjectively...no.

Us barely-above-sea-level wannabe's have no idea what ones' mind does up there. Climbing, as every retailer, trainer, manufacturer, guide, guide book, gym, climber, etc etc, says, is an inherently dangerous activity...... every time you rope up (or go it solo), whether at sea level or at 8000m, you could die..... yes we would like our mates/partners/anyone else out there to help us out of sticky situations.....but I'd prefer to have my group live to tell the tale than kill themselves trying to rescue my sorry ass...! That's precisely why Joe Simpson defended Simon for his actions.... rather one than all, eh! (I say this now, from the comfort of my office,...but as I've said before.... have no idea how I'd react on either side of a nasty situation at altitude)

I can confidently say that if person was in trouble on Kili I'd do what I can to get them down.......and can only say this because I've been there, and know how my body and mind coped at that altitude....... I have no idea what my decision making ability would be any higher than that.....

....neither would anyone else who hasn't been there.
Last edited by JonoJ on Thu May 10, 2007 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JonoJ
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Re:

Postby JonoJ » Thu May 10, 2007 4:21 pm

guest wrote:

JonoJ, I'm sure some people have tripped on the summit of Everest. I even read a story of a bunch who drank a bottle of Chivas and had a flew lines before they descended.


Damn..... my little Tanzanian Twakkie on top of Kili seems so paltry now!

hahaha

Marshall
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Postby Marshall » Thu May 10, 2007 4:32 pm

Guest, glad you are also a fan.

Drifter
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Not every climber desires to do alpine climbing

Postby Drifter » Thu May 10, 2007 4:52 pm

wannabe's is a wrong term to use as there are lots of rock climbers out there I believe who don't desire to do alpine climbing.

Drifter
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Some climbers on Everest

Postby Drifter » Fri May 11, 2007 6:26 am

Get tunnel vision and nothing else matters than getting to the summit so people dying around them that need comfort or assistance doesn't matter to them as long as they just get to stand on the top of Everest.

guest
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Postby guest » Sun May 13, 2007 9:26 am

Damn..... my little Tanzanian Twakkie on top of Kili seems so paltry now!


JonoJ, you Sir, are a legend!!! What better place for a bifter than this?!

Well done!


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