Quantcast
It is currently Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:21 pm

All times are UTC + 2 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Pine Trees Should Stay
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:54 am
Posts: 522
1. Pine trees haven’t created the water problem in Cape Town, too many people moving into Cape Town because of economic necessity and because of the growth of the suburbs as a result of economic development has created the water problem. More water needs to be found and pumped to Cape Town.

2. Pine trees make up a small proportion of vegetation in Cape Town and are no threat to Fynbos. We have large areas of fynbos like the Cape Nature Reserve.


3. Pine tree plantation give us picnic areas, wood, shade and it is nice escape for people who don’t have many trees where they stay.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:40 pm
Posts: 183
Nice one , Drifter :lol: ...great one mate . Got to disagree , I say chop them.. 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:48 am
Posts: 106
Location: PTA
Drifter,

I think the point of the whole decision was more to conserve and rehabilitate the vegetation that should be there instead of the pine trees which are alien, and not so much about the water in Cape Town.

I'm a Vaalie so I dont really have any right to say what I think should happen but I reckon the argument about losing recreational shade areas etc is a valid one. On the other hand I have been to silvermine reserve several times to climb and the recreational area around the lake there is well-shaded and very beautiful and there is'nt a Pine tree in sight.

I reckon we should work on eradicating the Moogoo's who are mugging the hikers/climbers before we worry about losing some Pine trees. :twisted:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 572
I say they should stay. If they plan on planting Yellowwoods, Milkwoods, etc. in their place then I say chop them down tomorrow! But if they just plan on letting the fynbos regrow then what is the point. It has become a shaded recreation area - one of the few in Cape Town. If all things foreign are evil then chop down all the oaks in the leafy suburbs, and if you think there are large amounts of dog shit on the Newlands paths now, just wait until all the Cecelia walkers come down to Newlands!!
I know of a lonely government house in the Cedarberg that's sole source of shade was a large shady foreign tree. Seeing as it was evil they chopped it down - but since then the building and area around it is directly in the sun and unbearably hot with everyone wishing they hadn't removed the tree.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: I agree Stu
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:54 am
Posts: 522
I agree, I don't see why people assume because a tree is foreign it is necessarily bad.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:54 am
Posts: 522
To stop violent crime on the mountains poverty has to be tackled and there needs to be better policing through better police management


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Hard Labour
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:12 pm
Posts: 11
They need to introduce work chain gangs as well so that people don’t just sit in prison doing nothing. Rehabilitation is fine but there is also needs to be punishment for wrong doing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:11 pm
Posts: 80
drifter
'The Cape Floral Kingdom is the smallest of the six Floral Kingdoms in the world, and is the only one contained in its entirety within a single country. It is characterized by its high richness in plant species (8 700 species) and its high endemicity (68% of plant species are confined to the Cape Floral Kingdom). The Cape Floral Kingdom thus compares with some of the richest floras worldwide, surpassing many tropical forest regions in its floral diversity.'

That is why the pine trees should go, I hardly think your desire for shade should be a factor, buy an umbrella.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 572
Having said that Myself, that logic would require the demolishing of your house and your local pub. The fact is that as human's we have cut down trees/fynbos and built houses, and come to settle here claiming the land as our own, even if it is environmentaly bad. Those pine trees are no worse than your local park or swimming pool. My and others desires, it seems, are more than enough reason to keep if not all then a nice portion of those pines on the lower slopes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:48 am
Posts: 106
Location: PTA
Drifter for president... :evil:

I agree in principle with your viewpoint drifter but thats pie in the sky for people that need a solution to crime thats happening on the mountain now at this moment, those d*cks on the Ct range that are terrorizing people that have a right to be there and are innocently doing what they love, should be treated like the scum that they are and thrown off a cliff face..

As far as the pine trees go I suppose its not dissimilar to wanting to cut down all the Jackaranda trees that are so famous in PTA or chopping down the Oaks in the more exclusive CT suburbs, they are all alien too. Or even wanting to take all the trout out of the streams that make the Cape such a well known fly-fishing destination

BUT, the intent is noble and if nothing is done about conserving the cape flora it will be gone in 50 years.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:54 am
Posts: 522
Mkboy I can't be president a bigger fool than myself has already got that job.

I think the short solution for mountain mugging would be for the government to have mountain rangers on the mountain. There would have to be a lot of them and they would need to be trained properly and armed properly. The army could be used to do this job.

Muggers are also humane. I don't condone their behaviour though, though I understand they are desperate and desperate people do stupid things.

If we there wasn't poverty and everyone had money to live I don't believe we would have crime on the mountain we do.

The long term solution to this country is a social democracy system I believe. We need government spending to get rid of poverty, yes it creates government debt though I believe as long as you can service that debt the country is fine. Sweden is a good example where the government has used its natural resources to benefit everyone.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: I agree
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:54 am
Posts: 522
I agree with you Stu what their logic is also saying is that it is alright for South Africans to kill foreigner workers because they are foreign and are also seen as a problem.

Cape Point nature reserve is a massive area to cultivate all the fynbos you want. In England they cultivate fynbos in green houses. I don't see fynbos under threat from pine trees. We should have a balance, ok some people don't like pine trees, but there are a lot of people who do. There should be a compromise.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:48 am
Posts: 106
Location: PTA
Drifter wrote:
Muggers are also humane. I don't condone their behaviour though, though I understand they are desperate and desperate people do stupid things.


Drifter, I sincerely hope you mean "human" not "Humane", In this particular case I would suggest that these w*nkers are nothing but modern day pirates who choose to do what they are doing because its easy money and because they have absolutely no regard for other human beings. There have been rumours that these guys are foreign and there has been at least one supposed sighting of them getting into a BMW after mugging someone....poverty my ass...

This country has some huge problems to overcome and in time we will overcome them..but w*nkers like these do not deserve any sort of pity or respect

Just curious, Drifter, what do you do for a living?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:54 am
Posts: 522
Mkboy, sorry my spelling is bad.

I am a woodworker/steel worker.

I am not sure all muggers mug because they want to. It is like car hijackers, you never hear of a lawyer or an accountant hijacking a car.

Why doesn't Sweden, Canada have the crime rate we have. It is because they don't have the poverty we do.

There are crimes which has nothing to do with poverty like rape, rapists come from all walks of life, the same with domestic violence perpentrators and child molesters they come from all walks of life.

The average mugger and hijacker wants your stuff to sell, so I assume he is not a person with a job to buy his own stuff. Maybe there are some opprotunists as well though I think they are the exception not the rule.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:11 pm
Posts: 80
no stu that logic would not require the demolision of my own house which sits on my land on which i can grow what i want. The pines grow on public land, soak up massive amounts of water, and prevents the growth of vegetation that is found nowhere else on this planet. my piece of land is about 400 m2 and has no pine trees, jacaranda's or any other 'invader' species for that matter (i've checked), the pine forests are 1000's of times the size, which is also a hell of a lot larger than your afore mentioned park/swimming pool.

Now to my own leap of logic. according to your statements, you seem to think that seeing as we've trashed our environment as much as we have, we may as well carry on trashing it and while we're at it lets wipe out entire species of plantlife (which as I've said grow nowhere else on the planet) so that we can enjoy the shade of a couple of pines, under which nothing grows.

Yes we have bulldozed endemic trees and fynbos to build houses, pubs etc, but surely thats's more of a reason to protect what little is left. If you want pines, live in europe.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:11 pm
Posts: 80
drifter, your leap of logic is just plain idiotic.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:48 am
Posts: 106
Location: PTA
Drifter,

i actually dont want to get into a debate about crime with you here because its been done MANY times before But...

I just cant help myself when you make such far fetched comments...

By your logic ALL poor people in this country should be perpetrating crimes and trying to hijack and pillage at will, when in reality it is a small percentage of people who find it easier to take than work for something, there is no denying the fact that poverty causes things like petty/oppurtunistic crime but the guy who puts a gat to your head at a robot chose to do so and is not working for himself,some fat-cat is sitting in his double storey house in an upmarket suburb and giving orders to his minions who then perpetrate that type of crime for R300 bucks a pop.

Dont try to tell me every poor person automatically turns to crime and its not their fault...puullleease! That is an insult to all the poor underprivileged people who get up every day at 4:30am and work their arse off for minimum wage. WHY? because they have morals and values just like your Swedes or Canadians that you hold up as examples.

As far as your 'fynbos in Greenhouse' comments go..dont even know where to start...although I would tend to agree with you that these particular trees might be worth keeping, you arguments dont convince those that dont.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 572
Whoah did you see that... it was my point and you totally missed it.
Check out the hout bay hillsides - but no one complaints are made as there is money to be made... All the parks, etc I'm sure mount to something similar.
I'm surprised you equate letting some pine trees remain were they are with trashing our environment?? Under which nothing grows? We live opposite a group of pines trees which co-exist with some indigenous vegetation, and the whole area is loved by and kept by the locals, both the fynbos and pines for their shade.
Just wondering if you would consider oak trees invader species?
Dude once again you are MISSING THE POINT, I don't want pines, we want shade. If they plan on replanting our indigenous TREES, than cut the pines down!
You're a climber right, what time of the day do you go out to climb or boulder - when there's shade! Your snipe about buying an umbrella is lame as my guess is if I ever see you at a crag, you'll be hogging the only line in the shade.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:11 pm
Posts: 80
wow stu, you're funny
I've spent a lot of time in Newlands and Tokai and I must admit I have never seen fynbos growing happily in the shade of pines, I can provide ample evidence about the damage that pines inflict, not only on the fynbos, but on the entire eco system in the areas they grow. But you claim all you want is shade, which makes me wonder why my gripe about the umbrella is lame. And besides when I'm out climbing, the routes tend to be steep enough to provide more than enough shade.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:13 pm
Posts: 572
Dude surely there is room for both. Leave some on the lower slopes near the parking and road for us wimps to use. I never said in the shade...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:09 am
Posts: 434
I heard that the pines were first planted to buffer the city from huge boulders that role down the mountain. & that some where in the MCSA journals it records the clubs vallant efforts to plant these trees... but try finding this referance.

What we really need in SA is a serious effort to reduce our population growth. The government would save thousands of by offering bakkie of beer to every male who had a vasectomy. 1 bukkie = 66 cases of quarts >R7000. 12 years child support grant = R21600 X 3 kids(+-) =R64800 add hospital costs & education. There is a saving to be made.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:12 pm
Posts: 11
Desperate Unemployed people normally would turn to crime such as petty theft, mugging and car hijackings when the rewards aren't that great. Lets think about it, would I rather be hijacking cars where I could shot by the police or rather have a good safe job. There is poverty related crimes and not poverty related crimes and when mugger is only get a watch or a camera which he will get nothing for from the pawn shops then I would say it is a poverty related crime.

Accountans might do white collar crime which is out of greed however someone breaking into your house is more than likely desperate to have some money to live.

It is not such a far jump in logic. You don't like Pine trees because they are foreign and you see them as a threat to fynbos which they are not.

Stu is right there is place for both pines and fynbos.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Police Sting Operations
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:54 am
Posts: 522
Police should do sting operations on the mountain. They should have an undercover policewoman who is armed and has a microphone on her walking looking like a vulnerable hiker and when she confronted by muggers she can pull a firearm and call for back up which could be hiding in bushes waiting nearby.

I think more CCTV cameras on the mountain is also a good idea.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Marshall that is funny
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:54 am
Posts: 522
but on a serious note I agree that overpopulation is a problem. Too many people are comming to Cape Town. Zimbabwe has to be stabilized and the government needs to spend large some of money in the Eastern Cape to create infrastructure and jobs so that people don't all come to Cape Town. We also need better border control so that you can have controlled migration.

I believe that one day birth control might have to become law ie like China policy of a person only beeing allowed to have one child. As people become more educated and realise costs of have too many children they will start having smaller families. I believe Italy has a negative growth in population and so do some other countries in Europe.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Policy might change
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:54 am
Posts: 522
Myself you have large areas of fynbos, fynbos is not under threat and I don't understand why you hate Pine trees so much. Pine trees I believe make up less then 10% of vegetation in Cape Town.

I suppose people can always grow pine trees in their gardens or as Bonsais.

I just hope by 2025 the policy of getting rid of all the pine trees would be reversed and you have pine plantations like we do now. As someone who works with wood I like the idea as well that we have local pine. The policy the national parks have been following till now which is to cut down sections of the forest to use as wood and then replant new pine trees is a workable solution and I don't see these plantations of beeing a threat to fynbos.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:11 pm
Posts: 80
Drifter, what part of 'grows nowhere else on the planet' don't you get, ie. YES, fynbos IS under threat. I don't hate pines, they're very picturesque, but if its a choice between a completely unique eco system that could not survive anywhere else, and a pine tree (of which there are billions all over the planet) I'd rather have the fynbos. But then again I don't have a vested interest in the pines as a source of cheap wood that fuels my business.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:54 am
Posts: 522
1.It is not my business it is my fathers business

2.We work mainly with Oregon Pine, American Beech, American Maple (United States) and Balau(Asia) American and Scandinavian Pine is better quality than South African Pine because in the United States and Europe the Pine grows slower in its natural environment so therefore the wood is harder and better quality than the local Pine which is growing in a tropical climate and therefore is growing too fast and the wood is not very hard, however the local Pine is a lot cheaper than imported Pine so therefore for those who can’t afford the foreign Pine use the local Pine in their house.

Our main line of work is steel work.

My biggest concern is that if you cut down all the pines, the people who live in areas that don’t have trees won’t have a place to go to braai under pines, picnic etc. What about people who like to walk their dogs in the shade?

I have seen fynbos grown in green houses in England; I think you can grow fyhbos anywhere in the right conditions though I could be wrong about this.

I would like to see real sciencetific evidence that Pines are a real threat to fynbos.

Are we going to destroy the squirrels as well by destroying their habitat?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:11 pm
Posts: 80
Drifter
If your biggest concern is the shade, take a look at the kirstenbosch botanical gardens, lots of shade, and apart from the few oaks on the drive in, its all indigenous, and the squirrels thrive, so no, cutting down pines will not wipe them out.

Who cares if you can grow fynbos in greenhouses in England, my point is that it only grows naturally on the Cape peninsula. Thats like saying we shouldn't worry about the poaching of endangered animals in the wild, because you can still see them in a zoo. You are just not seeing the bigger picture.

'braaing under pines' - are you insane, are you even vaguely aware of the kind of fire threat pines present. During the fires in 2000, pine trees played a key role in spreading the flames, because the flames burned as high as 10 metres, it was impossible for firefighters to put out.

and finally in terms of FACT, these are the results of a study by the department of environmental affairs on alien vegatation targeting specifically the pine plantations in Natal and on the Cape Peninsula.

'In 1998, geographical information systems analysis assessed that alien plants had invaded over 10 million hectares, an area larger than the province of KwaZulu-Natal, or approximately 8% of South Africa and invader plant species are conservatively estimated to spread at 5% per annum. Alien invader plant species have an adverse effect on biodiversity. Natural communities consist of a multitude of species and the sustainability of a community depends upon the interactions between species, climate and soil. A factor or event that disrupts this interaction can change the community. Such a factor is the invasion by alien invader plant species. The introduction and establishment of plant invaders in complex multi-species plant communities upsets the intricate set of competitive balances that are in operation. This disruption often results in dominance by the invader over the other species. Over time the rich multi-species community is transformed into a species-poor community within a degraded environment. South Africa, as a signatory to the Convention on Biodiversity, makes the conservation of biodiversity a national commitment and therefore also the responsibility of every landowner.
A far-reaching economic, as well as ecological and social, concern is the depletion of South Africa’s water resource that alien invader plant species incur. In KwaZulu-Natal alone, alien invader plants use approximately 576 million m3 per annum more than the natural vegetation they have invaded or replaced.
When invading alien trees burn, the flames can be up to 15 m high, often destroying houses and damaging the soil. In the case of fynbos the flames only reach 5 m. Invading alien plants grow in denser stands than natural shrub preventing firefighters from putting out a fire. Because the fires in invading alien vegetation are more intense than those in natural vegetation, resulting in damage to the soil. With the first rains the soil is then washed into rivers causing the rivers and dams to fill up with sand.'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 7:25 am
Posts: 235
Location: Durban
Real Name: Russell Warren
The squirrels are also an alien species


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: I like Squirrels
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:54 am
Posts: 522
Most of the local Pine comes from massive pine plantations in the Transvaal.

I know squirrels are Alien as well but I also like them. Correct if I am wrong but it was Cecil John Rhodes who introduced the guine fowl and squirrel to Cape Town.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC + 2 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group