This is how we want to represent women climbers?

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Mad
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Mad » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:02 am

Anna

"And I just can’t see what message it is trying to give, other than “we’re fuckable”, which, admittedly, it does rather well."

I agree with you that it is good to have constructive debates and I am glad that you feel that you have obtained the skills to do so productively, but making statements like this is a bit harsh, espesially considering that these are girls that we (or at least I ) know, and had it been me in those pictures I would feel severly insulted, espesially as nothing around those pictures suggest “we’re fuckable” - unless we still in the times of the Voortrekkers. And that may just be my opinion, but I believe that specific comment was uncalled for and goes againt what you actually tried to achieve.

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Thermophage
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Thermophage » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:23 am

Mad wrote:Anna

"And I just can’t see what message it is trying to give, other than “we’re fuckable”, which, admittedly, it does rather well."

I agree with you that it is good to have constructive debates and I am glad that you feel that you have obtained the skills to do so productively, but making statements like this is a bit harsh, espesially considering that these are girls that we (or at least I ) know, and had it been me in those pictures I would feel severly insulted, espesially as nothing around those pictures suggest “we’re fuckable” - unless we still in the times of the Voortrekkers. And that may just be my opinion, but I believe that specific comment was uncalled for and goes againt what you actually tried to achieve.
Totally agree man...I seem to have missed her saying that line. But saying that is kind of "off"...
Honestly, I did not see that in those pics either.
Com on Andy, what more do we need to do so that so that you'll follow through on your threat to come to the MRR tomorrow wearing only the bunny stuff :lol: ! That would be classic :P

Marshall1
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Marshall1 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:36 am

.
Last edited by Marshall1 on Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zoed
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by zoed » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:20 am

Ok so this issue has ruffled some feathers – and quite rightly so. Although I think most of it has been said already, I’ll add my 2 cents worth. On many of the points Anna raises I totally agree, however I take less offence. Having been a Rock Chick myself, on the website, and in the calendar, I have spent a moment or two thinking this through. Like Anna, I also commend Delaney for creating a forum for women climbers to share their achievements and personal climbing stories – and I have been happy to support the efforts of the website in giving women climbers a voice. I also sometimes use the word “chick” to refer to myself or other women – I don’t find the word offensive. However, there are also some points I agree with Anna on – now none of this is a personal attack, and I don’t aim to cause any insult or offence – this is theoretical and ethical. I just took another look at the Easter bunny pictures to refresh my memory – I see some attractive women, wearing make up, fluffy bunny ears and tails, posing in what are some traditionally ‘sexy’ women poses (some of which involve looking clueless – never sure why that’s seen as sexy).

I think where Rock Chicks falls down is that many of the photos seem more about the climber (actually more model than climber) looking hot than about the climbing itself – the name of the route/problem is often not mentioned, and the pictures often look posed rather than being real ‘action-climbing pictures’. In fact in the recent calendar, there were some very attractive looking pictures, but the actual climbing deemed so irrelevant that one of the problems featured was mis-named. I am not immune to wanting people to find me attractive, or let me put it this way – I certainly don’t consciously want people to think I’m unattractive – however, I have always been one to question social norms and their validity. I don’t deny my womanhood – but I certainly reject many of the gender norms laid out for me my society.

I think Anna’s point about the Rock Chicks tagline: “Girls climbing in a man’s world” is a good point. I think it serves to perpetuate the idea that women are second rate climbers, who win merit and attention in the climbing world based on their sex appeal rather than their climbing achievements (yes there are exceptions to this, Gosia being a great example). The “man’s world” part of it tells us that for us to be acceptable in the man’s world of climbing, we must turn up at the crag with shaven legs and armpits, preferably wearing tight fitting clothing, and maybe a touch of subtle makeup. Of course it’s each woman’s pejorative to decide whether she wants to shave or how she wants to dress, but you cannot deny the social pressure to conform to these expectations – and the reality of the matter is that it is much harder to not conform to these expectations than it is to just fit into the mould that male-dominated society lays out for you. In fact if you look at climbing gear designed for women, you will find harnesses embroidered with pink flowers and climbing shoes splashed with pink. I take offence to this, as I’m sure many female climbers do to, and not because we’re raging feminists, but because I don’t want a pink flowery harness. Maybe some women do, but why don’t they make men’s harnesses pink and flowery and give them the choice too...
Last edited by zoed on Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Chris F
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Chris F » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:42 am

That's a lot more than 2cents!

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DamageINC
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by DamageINC » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:57 pm

@ LCD - i have spent much time staring open mouthed at girls climbing far harder than I can & probably every will. It hasn't left me thinking I am inferior...only feeling inspired...

My rhetoric attack was to say "don't compare...there is always someone better"...
Who Dares...Wins (SAS)
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zoed
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by zoed » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:06 pm

...(continued 2 cents)...
The reaction of some people on this forum to Anna’s post serves to highlight exactly what she’s arguing against. Anna has had a strong reaction to the bunnies, stronger than my own – however that doesn’t make her an irrational hater, and certainly doesn’t warrant her being accused of being jealous. It’s not that women have to cover up – I am one to speak, notorious for being scantily clad, and having won the fancy-dress prize at the Montagu Rock Rally for example in outfits baring a lot of flesh – but you know what, my male climbing partner was wearing even less – it wasn’t about being sexy or skimpily dressed – it was about having a laugh. I have no problem with women exposing flesh, in fact there’s a picture of me climbing naked on this very website, however, it’s about the intention of the picture – that particular one was posted by my boyfriend as revenge for me posting one of him naked, fair’s fair. The reality is that women climbers also sweat, shit, fart, swear, have bodily hair – and those of us who don’t present a sanitised version of femininity are labelled as jealous, resentful, unattractive feminist man-haters. Without meekly accepting the niche that has been put aside for us in the male-dominated world of climbing, some of us would rather not be seen as girly, cute, ditzy and fluffy – but would rather be respected as equals.

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gregkriel
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by gregkriel » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:20 pm

:lol: Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla :jocolor: :roll:
"an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

ant
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by ant » Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:42 pm

The girls featured on Rock Chicks climb harder than the averge male user on the forum...
Nuf said?

BUT:Full marks on the concern. We're top-heavy on poor role models (women AND men's attitude to them) Attitudes are contagious and the detriment is to OUR lives and loves - so it's good to keep a healthy eye on where the line is.

See you all tomorrow.
Last one to fluff Andy's tail is a rotten egg...

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Faffy001
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Faffy001 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:07 pm

hahaha Ant..true that.

Perhaps the ladies who feel offended or who do not want to be portrayed as cute and ditzy while having a great time outdoors and climbing hard, should open their own website for rock woman? because the chicks who are happy to be portrayed in this way (as they are girly and like pink just as Sasha DiGulian does..and who are having a great time and are confident enough to know that they are strong kick ass climbers and not afraid to have a little fun). I for one really love climbing and pushing myself and I enjoy being out there and cranking crimps etc....but as many of us, I enjoy being a girl too..and sometimes we need a little bit of flowers and pinkness. I understand that a lot of ladies do the no makeup, no pink stuff thing...that's fine...but don't spoil the fun for the others please. Create something more for you then? Perhaps the website is not what you wished it would be but it's a lot of work for Delaney and a lot of us enjoy it very much. We have climb.za for the hardcore, serious stuff.

But dudes and gals...go climb now it's weekend. :afro:

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Forket
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Forket » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:35 am

BOOOOM she said it

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Forket
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Forket » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:52 am

If this was a guy it would be a bad photo, but rather its a nice photo

Ebert
because its a girl :shock:
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Turtle
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Turtle » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:57 pm

:lol:

what Derek said!

No, seriously, what he said.

And imagining OneD with bunny ears...hmmm, homo-erotic stuffff... sizzle....hahah :eye:

:cheers:
Last edited by Turtle on Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

aviendha
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by aviendha » Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:02 pm

As a female I support what Anna says.

I'm all for rock chicks :thumleft: and no problem with the name, and the calendars and website and dressing up for fun but did not appreciate the latest bunny shots. Maybe I should walk around with a pompom tail when climbing?!


My 2 cents.

Chris F
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Chris F » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:00 pm

Curiosity got the better of me so I went and had a look at the pics; to me it looks fairly obvious that they are taking the piss with the poses and having a laugh playing up to the stereotypical images for comedy effect? Surely they are all sensible enough to know what they are doing, and make their own decisions as to what they choose and choose not to do? It would be insulting to their intelligence to assume otherwise.

My 2 pence worth.

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Thermophage
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Thermophage » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:06 pm

Chris F wrote:Curiosity got the better of me so I went and had a look at the pics; to me it looks fairly obvious that they are taking the piss with the poses and having a laugh playing up to the stereotypical images for comedy effect? Surely they are all sensible enough to know what they are doing, and make their own decisions as to what they choose and choose not to do? It would be insulting to their intelligence to assume otherwise.

My 2 pence worth.
Man...if only everyone else would see it as OBVIOUSLY as you did...
Totally agree dude!
I know most of them and can tell you now they would not do shit if they thought they were portraying women in climbing in the way Anna and co. are trying to make out.

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gregkriel
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by gregkriel » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:10 pm

Amen! :thumleft:
"an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

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Dogleg
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Dogleg » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:52 pm

I agree!! Bunnies are silly... Hot Sheep are better!!!!
I'm not here for a long time,
I'm here for a good time!

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gregkriel
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by gregkriel » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:59 pm

Hhahahahahahahaha Trent Epic! Yes now we have a fantastic idea for Human Rights day :) Follow the leader :salut: ROFL
"an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

Gosia
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Gosia » Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:02 pm

I'm not one to post many replies to forums but I thought I'd add my 2cs too, since I thought this was an interesting debate. After reading the posts I decided to venture out and have a look at said culprit photos and I have to be honest and say that they made me giggle rather than feel offended.

But having said that I have thought quite a lot about how women are represented in the media. For me the outstanding feature of our time is that we have the choice to choose - traditional female representations, sporty female representations, gay female representations, career female representations etc. For me there's nothing inherently wrong with women parading around in bunny suits or arching backs or being sexy. All kinds of femininity have a place in the world. Having said that I realise that the current status quo in the media is of representing women as sex-objects. But we can still decide whether we take this on or not.

I do agree though that a site that represents women's climbing - ie who's aim it is to give women climbers a voice on the interwebs - should represent the merits of female climbers. That's not to say that photos taken to show off one interpretation of the feminine form should be ommitted, but rather that content should be balanced, focusing on the achievements of women, focusing on women climbers of different body shapes, ages etc. I think that overall the rock chics website has tried to do this - and such a debate is aimed at bettering our ideas around representations rather than pointing fingers.

See you out there! In bunny suits or bikinis or ties or suspenders or 80's leopard skin!

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Thermophage
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Thermophage » Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:25 pm

Well said Gosia :)

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henkg
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by henkg » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:10 pm

Lynn Hill
Catherine Destivelle
Steph Davis

etc. etc. etc
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

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henkg
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by henkg » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:18 pm

LauraE wrote: I love South Africa, but I hate the prevailing attitudes to gender in this country. At worst, they advocate aggression and violence towards women and at best they are conservative and stifling. These issues have been recently thrown into the international media limelight and it really is time to get with the programme.
Geez! No I do not want to get with the programme. I think you are on the wrong forum, try politics.
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

Dark Horse
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Dark Horse » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:34 pm

I read Anna's post and while I might not agree with everything she's said she doesnt seem to attack anyone. I must say some of the people's replies seem rather harsh and seem to really have a dig at her. It takes some courage to voice an opinion on the inter-web. Some responses were great some were really kak!

I'm no angel though so I don't mind if anyone wants to throw rocks at me, I live in Cape Town. Pm me for directions.

Neels Havenga

Bubblyworld
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Bubblyworld » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:35 am

I wouldn't take it too seriously.

Those women in the photos are clearly not being forced to do it. Delaney is clearly not being forced to run her website and do what she does, and she is doing a wonderful job.

There were photos of a certain climber climbing a certain route dressed up as Mary Poppins a while ago. Is promoting this wrong, and against the rights of people who choose to cross-dress on a regular basis? Not at all. It is simply a bit of fun.

Us terrible people who were born in the majority are not being misled to think of woman as objects because of a few photographs.

Guy (Paterson-Jones)

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gregkriel
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by gregkriel » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:04 am

Gosia for president :queen: ;)
"an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

zoed
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by zoed » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:22 am

An interesting take on the topic - for those who can be bothered to read the whole article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... nges-world

And for those who can’t:
“…our feminism is stifled by the belief that the battles have been won, and we are free to enjoy equality in all of its male-sanctioned glory.… For every campaign against objectification, we have the Sex and the City brand of feminism, as personified by a burgeoning movement in America calling itself "sexy feminists", which reassures us that one can believe in gender equality and still pay hefty sums of money to have pubic hair ripped out at the root… At its core, feminism should be angry. It should be angry because women are still being taken for a ride… we are being sold a lie of equality… When feminists decide they want to appeal to everybody, what they are really doing is attempting to appeal to men, as culture in a patriarchy is defined by male values and male norms…”

Chris F
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by Chris F » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:47 am

Interesting article.

Just to expand on my point made above, I don't believe there aren't problems with representations of females in society as a whole, just that the target of the opening tirade was probably ill chosen.

zoed
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by zoed » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:57 am

I agree that this debate has gone way beyond the Rock bunnies thing - but that photo shoot provided a catalyst for a much needed discussion.

Women should be free to be pink, fluffy and cute (I object to the ditzy/dumb thing), be shaven, giggle and flutter their mascara laden eyelashes if that's what they want. But women should also be free to wear no make-up, be as hairy as nature made them, laugh deep and heartily and not bounce around fluttering their eyelashes, if they so choose. And let us all be represented and respected.

Peas.

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gregkriel
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Re: This is how we want to represent women climbers?

Post by gregkriel » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:20 pm

off topic :thumleft: :idea:
Last edited by gregkriel on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

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