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Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:16 am
by SMEG
hit the nail squarely on the head mr davies..

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:07 pm
by chowell
Nobody (including TMNP) has been able to answer my original question. Are day activity permits availed? If I want to take a friend to Silvermine to try his hand at climbing does he have to have photographs taken and wait weeks for an annual permit. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Once again our glorious comrade leaders have legislated before thinking it through.

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:42 pm
by mokganjetsi
i'm not particularly fond of SANP and do not think they are handling some important issues very well. i do think however that we could do with a little bit of perspective here; and hence my best attempt with not-so-much research:

TMNP is 221 sqkm which is pretty damn big
this whole thing has to be managed properly: administrative staff & offices; management of the environment; building & maintainning some infrastructure (paths, stairs, camp sites, huts etc); patrolling the park; ensuring the safety of thousands and thousands of visitors each year etc etc.
government funding of SANP-TMNP has been withdrawn (i think), which is a political crime in my uninformed opinion. the park is a major drawcard for hundreds of thousands of tourists each year who create massive revenue & job creation across the board. hotels; other accommodation providers; retailers; taxi, bus & car rental; restaurants etc etc are making nice taxable profits and goverment is skimming VAT off every tourist rand spent. TMNP indirectly generates huge revenue for government but has to rely on relatively limited opportunities to fund its own sizable operations.
you can imagine the internal wangling, budget squeezing and politicking in the organisation to try and make it all work....
i do not think it unreasonable for them to issue activity permits to increase revenue and manage environmental impact, but it was obviously not well thought through (day visitors?) and implementation sucks.
crime is a significant problem but i maintain that its impossible for SANP, given their lack of potential revenue, to have enough trained resources to adequately safeguard a park of its size. if we don't pay before things improve we sit with an interesting chicken-and-egg situation. we need to look to both the provincial government, the SAP, SANP and ourselves to solve this problem.

1st prize would be for the city of CT to run the park but i don't know how realistic that is
all that said, i hope we can try and deal with this constructively and refrain from demonizing SANP. easy to tear down; not so easy to build.......

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:29 pm
by Richard
The City used to manage the TM area, probably no better, or worse, than Sanparks. But, what if they too wanted to milk the cash cow? How many remember Sanparks attempts to get control of the Cederberg? Imagine if that had happened...

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:17 am
by zoed
The biggest load of crap concerning these new activity cards is that you have to have a separate activity card for each activity, BUT that you're not allowed to do 2 activities at the same time - for example dog walking and rock climbing - so you can't take your dog to the crag with you even if you have an activity card for both of those activities.

See this below:

"One is not allowed to perform more than one activity at a time – e.g. walk your dog whilst horse riding, or walk your dog whilst mountain biking unless special permission is obtained (e.g. a blind horse rider needing a guide dog ). You may use your level 4 permit on one occassion and on a serparte occassion use your My Activity Permit for rock climbing."

For the whole discussion:

http://www2.sanparks.org/forums/viewtop ... d#p1581874

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:10 pm
by Delaney
Hi All

Just a friendly reminder that the current status of climbing permits in Table Mountain National Park is as follows:

Trad Climbing – requires no activity permit
Sport Climbing – requires an activity permit unless you are a card-carrying MCSA Member
Bouldering – requires no activity permit pending the finalization of the Bouldering EMP

Please be aware of SANParks Rangers requesting spot fines or issuing tickets for failure to produce activity permits. Kindly be respectful to rangers but do not allow yourselves to be bullied by them. Unless and until the legal position changes, the agreement between SANParks and the MCSA is as above.

The MCSA would also like to know every incidence that does occur where a climber is challenged in respect of the above by a SANParks ranger. Please email Delaney on delaney@rockchicks.co.za should this occur so that we can keep a log.



Yours sincerely

Delaney Carpenter – Chairperson of the Rock Climbing Sub-Committee of the MCSA Cape Town Section on behalf of
Brian Lambourne – Chairman of the MCSA Cape Town Section

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:06 pm
by GClamp
What is the status on a day permit? I saw in an early post that if you bought an entrance ticket to Silvermine then that allowed you to climb in the park?

However, on Sunday I took a friend, who had never been climbing, to Silvermine. At the entrance I showed my activity permit and then paid for my friend. The ranger at the gate asked me what I was doing and I said I was going climbing. He said that my friend needed an activity permit if he wanted to climb. I said as far as I knew if my friend paid an entrance fee then he was entitled to climb?

What is the official stance on this? As it has been mentioned countless times already there is currently nothing for one time climbers or overseas visitors.

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:37 pm
by Justin
Hi GClamp,

That was the story when I inquired, however (as you have probably already seen), the MCSA have been in talks with SANParks.

The official stance from the Mountain Club is now (as per the Wild Cards and Activity Permits for TMNP:

Hi All

Just a friendly reminder that the current status of climbing permits in Table Mountain National Park is as follows:

Trad Climbing – requires no activity permit
Sport Climbing – requires an activity permit unless you are a card-carrying MCSA Member
Bouldering – requires no activity permit pending the finalization of the Bouldering EMP

Please be aware of SANParks Rangers requesting spot fines or issuing tickets for failure to produce activity permits. Kindly be respectful to rangers but do not allow yourselves to be bullied by them. Unless and until the legal position changes, the agreement between SANParks and the MCSA is as above.

The MCSA would also like to know every incidence that does occur where a climber is challenged in respect of the above by a SANParks ranger. Please email Delaney on delaney@rockchicks.co.za should this occur so that we can keep a log.

Yours sincerely

Delaney Carpenter – Chairperson of the Rock Climbing Sub-Committee of the MCSA Cape Town Section on behalf of
Brian Lambourne – Chairman of the MCSA Cape Town Section

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:31 pm
by GClamp
Hi Justin

Thanks for the reply.

So it basically means if you don't have an activity permit you cannot sport climb in Table Mountain National Parks.

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 9:03 am
by Justin
This seemingly makes the SANPark Activity Permit a bit more worthwhile!

From TMNP Access Cards & Activity Permits page.

Does the cost of My Activity Permit include the cost of access?

Holders of a My Activity Permit will not be required to pay the entrance fees when accessing TMNP pay points to carry out their specified activity.

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 9:08 am
by Thermophage
Yep, most definitely :)
That is however what the website says...but I have spoken to Rangers at Silvermine before who said the opposite...
So, it doesn't help if this is their procedure, but the people on the ground enforcing it are unaware of this :(
Lets hope I just got an ignorant one :thumleft:

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 11:02 am
by Delaney
Hi All

Further to the recent challenges from SANP Rangers with climbers in Table Mountain National Park, the Mountain Club of South Africa has drafted a letter which climbers can download from our website and print out to take with them to show to any rangers who may question their climbing activities in the park.

The letter can be found and downloaded off our Website: http://mcsacapetown.co.za/images/storie ... ermits.pdf

Any questions, please don’t hesitate to contact me.

Thank you so much and kind regards
Delaney

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:47 am
by Justin
Just spoke to a friend who mentioned that there was a TMNP Ranger asking climbers (and walkers) for activity permits.

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:31 am
by Thermophage
Justin wrote:Just spoke to a friend who mentioned that there was a TMNP Ranger asking climbers (and walkers) for activity permits.
There were they asking and was he asking sport climbers and traddies? I wonder how informed the rangers are...Doesn't help us if they don't know trad and bouldering are still exempt from permits :(

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:59 am
by Justin
Apologies, I should have been more specific! It was on Table Mountain, Fountain Ledge area.

My understanding is that TMNP have not formally agreed to this arrangement!?

This sentence comes from the letter [link in previous post 3 up]:
"SANParks have indicated that they propose changing this arrangement and MCSA is engaging with them on this."

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:52 pm
by lelikegogga
Thermophage wrote:I wonder how informed the rangers are...Doesn't help us if they don't know trad and bouldering are still exempt from permits
Also know of climbers confronted by rangers on Lion's Head.
They were taken aback by the rangers asking form permits and turned back. At the car the one got his phone and googled for info surrounding permits, found the letter (http://mcsacapetown.co.za/images/storie ... ermits.pdf) and decided to go back and confront the rangers.

Upon doing so the rangers seemed to know about the letter, but "just wanted to check if the climbers knew about it".
:cry:

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:02 pm
by Thermophage
lelikegogga wrote:
Thermophage wrote:I wonder how informed the rangers are...Doesn't help us if they don't know trad and bouldering are still exempt from permits
Also know of climbers confronted by rangers on Lion's Head.
They were taken aback by the rangers asking form permits and turned back. At the car the one got his phone and googled for info surrounding permits, found the letter (http://mcsacapetown.co.za/images/storie ... ermits.pdf) and decided to go back and confront the rangers.

Upon doing so the rangers seemed to know about the letter, but "just wanted to check if the climbers knew about it".
:cry:
SANPARKS... /SPIT!

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:41 pm
by Justin
lelikegogga wrote:Upon doing so the rangers seemed to know about the letter, but "just wanted to check if the climbers knew about it".
:cry:
This kind of thing lowers my level of respect for SANParks, I know it's not all the rangers - but for most of us, rangers are the face of SANParks.

(seemingly the ranger last Saturday was aware of the letter and was requesting to see MCSA persons membership cards).

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:52 am
by XMod
Shoo climbing has become an expensive pastime! TMNP activity card R350p/a, Wild card R435p/a plus Rocklands bouldering permits at R80(?) a day - bloody hell! Makes sneaking onto some farmers land for a spot of illegal bolting seem like not such a bad idea after all...

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:18 am
by XMod
Got my activity permit on Sunday - I are now legal :thumleft: - now to climb like a demon!! :twisted:

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:38 am
by Thermophage
Activity Permit is more than that man...Level 3 is like R450 now a year me thinks...And the Rocklands permit aint R80 a day :)
Oh, today is NW btw...which means Kalk Bay will be good :D

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:54 am
by Justin
Since we're on the subject... what would climbers be prepared to pay for entry into Boschkloof?

- Day rate?
- Annual Rate?

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:27 am
by Thermophage
Speaking from experience and being lambasted for the (apparently) exorbitant daily Rocklands day price I'd guess people would not be happy for anything over R40 for a day permit.
Annual...something similar to the Activity Permits...around R400?

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:56 am
by Justin
Thermophage wrote:... I'd guess people would not be happy for anything over R40 for a day permit.
Great, then I have 10 Rands worth of good news :P

Boschkloof is not open yet (the kloof currently remains closed/off limits).
Fingers crossed, the Boschkloof will be open early next year.

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:20 am
by Thermophage
Justin wrote:
Thermophage wrote:... I'd guess people would not be happy for anything over R40 for a day permit.
Great, then I have 10 Rands worth of good news :P

Boschkloof is not open yet (the kloof currently remains closed/off limits).
Fingers crossed, the Boschkloof will be open early next year.
Awesome :D

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:40 am
by tygereye
Justin, that's awesome news!
Thank sfor all your efforts! :thumright

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:48 am
by Justin
Tx, it's not quite 100% yet...

We're looking at a 6 month trial run to begin.
Entrance will be charged at R30 per day per person and there will most likely be an annual fee introduced later on.
We'll need to do a bit of path building (new and cutting back existing paths).
Policy (there will be a number of the usual rules) + you will pack out what you pack in - this includes everything.

Big thanks also to Riki (my wife) and the owners of the kloof.

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:58 pm
by henkg
As in poop tubes? :shock:

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:11 pm
by Justin
**Thread hijack** I'll move it later...

Henk, yes that is correct!

Re: TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:21 pm
by XMod
More pay to climb? At R30 a visit we at least expect a flush toilet - oh and valet parking and car guards :wink: