MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

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Forket
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MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Forket » Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:37 am

I'm interested in developing new/old sport climbing crags for all South Africans.

Can anyone please tell me which properties were donated to MCSA during times of Apartheid (pre 1994) (government/private donations) and what the access of these properties are today.

Email me at:
ebertnel@yahoo.com

Reference to the first order of business by the president in the November MCSA Nation news, added below.


Ebert Nel
It's time to start developing these places.
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MIKESCOTT
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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby MIKESCOTT » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:12 pm

Hi Ebert,
This is NOT an authoritative reply, but to the best of my knowledge (nothing exceptional, but have been an MCSA member for 50 plus years) there are NO properties donated to the MCSA by the previous Government. The club had to buy all the land we own.
Regards,
Mike Scott
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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby MIKESCOTT » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:17 pm

A PS to what I wrote previously, is that if you also include servitudes as opposed to ownership, then the Club also purchased almost all our servitudes.
I don't know about the ones in the North, but in the Cape there is only 1 servitude that was donated and that is over a portion of the Witzenberg granted by the late Jannie Graaf.
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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Nic Le Maitre » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:48 am

The land for the Agtertafelberg Hut was donated to the Club by private land owners.
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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Old Smelly » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:33 am

I know you guys are just being decent but Eberts goal is to try and expropriate land from the MCSA in Magaliesberg...draw your own conclusions (edited so I don't seem prejudicial)
Last edited by Old Smelly on Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby DeanVDM » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:00 am

Properties in the North was mostly bought using member funds. In many cases members had to pay in extra for the club to afford the properties e.g. the Wilgepoort property bought in 2012 cost just under R4 mil (public auction) and a very significant portion of this came from a fund raising, bequests and donation campaign started after the purchase. The balance came from funds accumulated from ordinary membership fees over several years. The same holds for e.g. Castle Gorge etc.

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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Justin » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:18 am

Old Smelly wrote:... Eberts goal is to try and expropriate land from the MCSA...


The 'youth leagues' of today :pirat:

Ebert, whilst on your walk across the Magaliesberg consider asking each farmer you meet if any of their land was donated to them by the previous government :twisted:

Interesting question, as are the answers.
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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby mokganjetsi » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:26 am

Old Smelly wrote:I know you guys are just being decent but Eberts goal is to try and expropriate land from the MCSA in Magaliesberg - not a very altruistic or community based goal - more of a revenge type self serving thing...


Ebert, clarity on this please?

And do you intend to start bolting at trad venues if you gain access / control?

If this is the truth you will have your ass kicked, make no mistake. If your intention is pure - good luck :thumleft:

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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Gustav » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:41 pm

Also, Ebert, whilst on your walk across the Magaliesberg, consider taking a big white flag on a pole and something against shotguns just in case they (the landowners) don't see/understand the purpose of the white flag.
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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Forket » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:31 pm

I'm not trying to expropriate anything.

I'll be the guy to ask for private access wherever access is already given to clubs only. This is so that the individual (that does not want to be part of a club) can access these amazing locations as well, while paying a once off/ daily/ camping fee.

As for the donated properties. I believe access should be granted to the public or how does MCSA plan on ever improving their demographic?

My motives are pure. Stop harassing me. Thanks for the emails :thumleft: .

Ebert Nel

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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Forket » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:50 pm

Thanks @Mike Scott, @Nic Le Maitre, @Dean VDM for the knowledge

and mostly to my #1supporter @oldsmelly, that once again saw the worst in me (even though you completely missed the plot and that I have no ambition of doing what you insinuate and will never either), but managed to keep a response to almost a one liner. Please learn that I love the mountains, being among them and that I will spend close to the rest of my life bumming out there having fun. Enjoy bringing the negative out of the next generation when they discover the forum. and PS: I know who you are.

@Mokganjetsi: South Africans dont trad hard (unless your name is Clinton, but I respect him enough not to even consider it) enough for me to be interested in bolting any trad lines when I gain access to trad only locations. Yes I do plan on bolting sport routes in these "trad only" locations. I've got ethics, I understand the concept of respecting the first ascentionist, but we need more sport routes out there and unfortunately, Ebert is seeking international funding/help to make this happen. I'll have permission from land owners before I place a bolt.

@Mcsa: I have nothing against your organisation, I just dont want to be part of your insiders only club. MORE ACCESS FOR EVERYONE

peace
Ebert Nel
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I dont plan on reading this topic again.

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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Nic Le Maitre » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:15 pm

Forket wrote: Yes I do plan on bolting sport routes in these "trad only" locations. I've got ethics, I understand the concept of respecting the first ascentionist, but we need more sport routes out there and unfortunately, Ebert is seeking international funding/help to make this happen. I'll have permission from land owners before I place a bolt.


I'm guess that by "trad only locations" you mean the Magliesberg? Well good luck convincing the land owners there to allow you to place bolts.

Furthermore, looking at how trad gear has advanced and made the protection of climbs that in the past would have been considered impossible to climb safely without bolts, possible and how climbing skill levels have progressed, who is to say that these lines you want to permanently change with bolts are not the trad lines of tomorrow and should be left up to the climbers of tomorrow to attempt in these trad only areas. Why do you have this desire to remove this chance from them?

Also, seriously what is wrong with top-roping these lines if they are so amazing? I know you don't get the ego trip of telling your buddies what a great lead you had, but if sport climbing is supposed to be all about the gymnastic accomplishments, is top-roping not the purest form of climbing after free soloing?
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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Logic » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:55 pm

Ebert,

Your uncanny portrayal as a modern day Don Quixote is rather commendable.

Jurie J

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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby mokganjetsi » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:36 pm

Forket wrote:Yes I do plan on bolting sport routes in these "trad only" locations.


The trad only ethic is not only about the first ascent, or even the tradition of an area - it is about preserving segments of nature in it's original & pristine condition and to maintain the challenge for future generations as Nick explained. There are sport areas, I see scope for selected mixed areas and some areas should stay trad only.

You are perhaps the one climber in SA that can reach 9a. I do not think there's much / anything you will find in the kloofs to take you there. For guys that will never reach your grade,s the magalies trad lines, choss, bronx and boven gives ample of challenges. No need to bolt trad areas for them.

I heartell the Outback has potential for some insanely hard stuff. Pity it's so far away..... think you should move to Cape Town :? you and Jurie and Old Smelly can reconcile over a beer or six.

ps: if you bolt a trad venue that guys feel strongly about, your bolts (and balls) will get chopped. don't go there dude.

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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Old Smelly » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:16 am

I apologise Ebert for ever questioning your motives -its seems like your intentions are pure - apart from the bits where you want to go and deface private property - so I will once again voice my support for you finding new sport crags.

I also apologise if I seem to be "down on the youth" when in fact all I am trying to do is stop you from antagonising almost every other climber in the country. It disappoints me that you may know who I am as that would imply that someone misguidedly gave away my anonymity and in doing so ruined all the fun! :jocolor:

So on a positive note - lets all look forward to Eberts new sport crags and lots of great new climbs! It could be just what we need to invigorate the climbing community.
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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby pillick » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:24 am

Trolling is so lame and juvenile

more access = more dickheads = piss landowners = no access
simple....

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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Warren G » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:43 am

Make some money. Buy some land. It's Yours, do as you chose. But don't get invited to someones house, shit on their stoep then expect a second invite.

There is enough rock in this country for us not to need to bolt in trad areas or visa versa. Why add all the trouble in your life by doing so?
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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Guardian » Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:23 pm

I'll be the guy to ask for private access wherever access is already given to clubs only. This is so that the individual (that does not want to be part of a club) can access these amazing locations as well, while paying a once off/ daily/ camping fee.
As for the donated properties. I believe access should be granted to the public or how does MCSA plan on ever improving their demographic?

\
Ebert you are misrepresenting the MCSA. The entire mandate of the MCSA is to protect, conserve and to share these properties. With the public too
Without the MCSA these locations would not be "amazing" or protected and in their natural wilderness state, you need a large organization to fund land acquisition for conservation while still allowing public access. We have one. The MCSA. They help set up the The Magaliesberg Protected Environment as well as the Magaliesberg Protection Association and most recently the magalies Biosphere reserve. The properties/funds were donated because the donors believed in the MCSA mandate. To conserve while allowing public access.
And most importantly. You're great idea about "paying a once off/ daily/ camping fee" is called the MCSA permit system and is open to the public.
You are creating an enemy where there is none. No revolution needed believe it or not.

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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Ringo » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:11 pm

+10000 to Gaurdians comment.

It still amazes me how so many sport climbers convienently forget all the hard work, time and money that many MCSA members put into obtaining access rights to places like Boven, Chosspile, Bronkies, King Kloof, Wellingtons Dome to name a few..... Without these efforts you wouldn't have sport venues available to EVERYONE. Nevermind the time and bolts donated by people and the bolting fund to bolt many of these venues.

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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby happy » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:22 am

Hey Ringo, and whoever else with the same point of view.
Not all sport climbers are Ebert, or the same as him. Some people simply prefer sport climbing to trad. Please stop generalising.

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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Turtle » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:54 am

What Gaurdian and happy said, +10000 to them,
-10000 to Ringo. I'm sure there are many a sport climber that probably have integrity enough and won't generalise like that. Made me think of Snort's 'lowest common denominator' - a statement like that I can associate with the LCD types.

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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby emile » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:17 am

Can you guys please put thousand separators in your + like numbers. Now I have to squint & count them each time to try and make out which comments are the most liked :pirat:

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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Old Smelly » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:49 am

Ok I know I shouldn't post on Ebert's thread -but anyway...

Guys let's not be down on Ebert - he said that his aims are totally transparent and for the good of all climbers - so let's give him the benefit of the doubt...

After all he may get all of us climbers some new sport crags...

As to what the rest of you are saying I suspect we are ALL on the same page - there are not many sport climbers who are totally unaware of what the MCSA does for all climbers in terms of access and bolts and there are some very good people out there doing some GREAT stuff in the name of the MCSA to get us more sport areas. Sometimes things go skew - like this hidden kloof thing - and people get upset BUT we all know that at least those guys tried to get a new climbing area for us climbers. So let's stick together and work on access and new stuff together instead of creating division where there is none.

Oh and by the way - who knows a trad climber who doesn't do sport? It's all really the same group of people. So in a way lets stop creating false divisions (unless we are all just having a little fun :thumright )

Even in this case I think we need to help Ebert get to the kind of climbs he needs to progress and all this other stuff will be forgotten...
Last edited by Old Smelly on Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Nic Le Maitre » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:02 am

Old Smelly wrote:Even in this case I think we need to help Ebert get to the kind of climbs he needs to progress and all this other stuff will be forgotten...


Can't we club together and buy him a one way ticket to Spain or the States or anywhere...
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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Justin » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:21 am

Or even better get Clinton to take him under his wing and teach him to Trad climb :wink:
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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby emile » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:46 am

Nic Le Maitre wrote:
Old Smelly wrote:Even in this case I think we need to help Ebert get to the kind of climbs he needs to progress and all this other stuff will be forgotten...


Can't we club together and buy him a one way ticket to Spain or the States or anywhere...


Somewhere with very lax deportation rules please.

What's the bank account number? :thumright

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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Turtle » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:32 am

@ OneD: Sorry old man, ne,xt tim,e... 8)

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Re: MCSA properties donated by RSA government during Apartheid

Postby Gadget » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:56 am

Forket wrote:Can anyone please tell me which properties were donated to MCSA during times of Apartheid (pre 1994)


Forket, the idea of simply getting property and access for free is very appealing but reality is that one needs to put your money where your mouth is to arrange / buy the climbing community perpetual and legal access to a property you one can bolt that 36 of yours! Warning: Buying land and arranging access is not for the weak minded, unimaginative or gutless. Since you are neither of these there is a chance that you can pull it off.

As a starting point take a leaf out of the MCSA Land and access book:
Get a lawyer: At Waterval Boven the MCSA bought a bigger property (farm), subdivided it into a crag and non-crag portion and then sold of the non-crag part to put the money back into the land fund for the next purchase. This was followed by handfuls of bolts for everyone to clip. Same story with Seremodi (FYI: it’s a stunning hiking venue / kloof so is probably off your radar but still worth the visit).

Find big money and guarantees: At Grootkloof where the MCSA did not have the money, a very kind Gentleman (in the true sense of the word) offered surety for the MCSA whilst there was very big campaign afterwards to raise the enormous amount of around a million rands (a very significant amount of money for those days).

Make friends: What about Castle Gorge which was bought with literally more than 100 other owners to afford it as no singe organisation / person had the money. And shortly after some more friends was needed to make sure that this property did not end up bordering a downstream Casino at Marletwane (I kid you not).

Work in a team: It took 15 years of footwork and patience for the MCSA to get to buy Wilgepoort. During this time the relationship, several rounds of negotiation and several offers to purchase was made to the farm owner (along with some slamming of doors in our faces). A single person cannot keep it up for that period of time it was handed over multiple times and when the time came the purchase finalised and money (and loans) found within 2 weeks.

Then there was the tracking down of the prodigal son of the son of the farmer that ended up with a 9/104’ths of a share in the farm to make him an offer he can’t refuse and secure our access. The bag of tricks also includes making friends with neighbours, making enemies of neighbours, legal action against neighbours, property swaps, servitudes, parking arrangements, court cases, knocking on doors, eating humble pie to appease a neighbour who was assulted by a permit holding visitor to MCSA property and patiently waiting for the current owner to get too old and then sell the property.

To get back to your apartheid assumption. The truth is that it would have been quite cool had the climbing crags been donated by the present or past governments – but for SA climbers that is a pipe dream and we need to face the reality that in lieu of donations it takes years of fund raising, hard work and people with a passion to make it happen (and we are not alone – the same happens in the UK etc.). Both the past and present governments have not given the mountain loving public much in the way of access – to the contrary both pre- and post 1994 governments have taken away access which is why REAL RIGHTS to access a property not just a friendly gentlemen’s agreement with the land owner but something that is legal and costly.

I wish you good luck (you will need it).

P.S. When you do find yourself in the need of financial backing to secure access to that crag give one of us a call – I’m sure the MCSA would be interested in worthy (affordable) projects to procure further legal rights for future climbers


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