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Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:24 am
by Iain
No, this is not an April Fools joke.

On 3 August 2009 minister of enviromental affairs, Buyelwa Sonjica, signed the "Proposed Regulations for Proper Administration of Nature Reserves" (notice 1029 of 2009).

Draft Regulation 47 states: "No person may, except with the prior written authorisation of a management authority- engage in the sport of climbing rock faces."

This regulation covers scrambling, trad climbing, sport climbing and bouldering within the borders of any nature reserve. Remember that current permits (covered by wildcards) are land access permits, not climbing permits.

So, without a permit that doesn't exist, no climbing.

From what I hear, some legal minds within the MCSA are working on a document to be lodged with the ministers office before the regulations are finalised.

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:19 am
by emile
from Polity.org.za
Buyelwa Patience Sonjica, Minister of Water and Environmental Affairs, hereby give notice of the intention to, under paragraph {1} of section 53, read with paragraph (3) of section 57 of the Act, make the regulations in the schedule.
On page 37 of the Draft regulations for the proper administration of nature reserves: For written representations of objections:
No person may, except with the prior written authorization of a management authority
(1) engage in the sport of climbing rock faces;
(2) engage in the sport of parachuting or abseiling;
(3) use a hang glider or any other kind of glider;
(4) launch or fly a hot air balloon;
(5) fly model planes or gliders;
(6) engage in the sport of any kind of boarding; or
(7) operate any motorised vehicle for recreational purposes.
and it goes on about watersport, pets etc. etc.

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:21 am
by illona
Why would they do this? Are they forcing permits on rugby players and other random sports too?

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:35 am
by proze
Pardon my ignorance, but which of our major areas are in reserves? Cedarberg, Rocklands, Table Mountain, Shongweni... add to the list?

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:47 am
by rocklooney
Morons. Like they haven't got more important s*&t to sort out in this wonderful country of ours (theirs). I suppose he needed two weeks in the Hyatt Regency at R 450 000 to draft this quaint little paragraph? Will be interesting to see how they enforce it. They'll all have to learn to free Oceans of Fear.

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:51 am
by XMod
Aah yes our tax dollars hard at work for us! Government policy: If you do not understand something ban it!

Now which of you fools voted for these squatters again? Hmm, c'mon own up!

Soon you will not be allowed to: speak English (or Afrikaans), engage in intelligent conversation, have intelligent thought patterns, ...or even use condoms!! If you are caught doing any of the above without an official government permit you will be shot on sight by our new paramilitary police force!

SA Politicians:
Image

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:06 am
by Magnus
I think they figured that the easiest (i.e. least work) way to manage a reserve, is to keep people out. The animals look after themselves and the fynbos is pretty hardy. Perfect plan!

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:12 am
by Dogleg
When is this potential ban potentially being enforced? And why for that matter? Somebody die (natural selection)?
It'll be fun breaking the law just to go climbing!
Somehow though, this all seems like a bunch of crap... I'm not buying it.

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:14 am
by Magnus
JOIN the MCSA! :thumright Nobody cares about this forum.

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:25 am
by pillick
I am a criminal. I went climbing yesterday....

Funny how quickly the masses are relying on the MCSA to "sort" this out. I am sure everyone who has dissed the club in the past will now have to "work together" in order make climbing legal.

Climbers unite...

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:25 am
by M@
I'm sure Mr Malema could offer some pearls of wisdom on the matter since climbers are "elite whites" and obviously hiding their "real agenda" in this imperialist activity.

Wow SA politics are truly comical!

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:30 am
by Nic Le Maitre
Climbing areas in reserves in the Western Cape

All of the TM-Penisula spots are in the National Park;
Rocklands, Tafelberg, Truitjieskraal, The Pup, Maltese Cross... basically everywhere in the Cedarberg except Wolfberg and Sanddrift are in a Cape Nature area;
Du Toits Kloof, Hellfire, Witteberg, Deception, Wemmershoekberge, Limietberge are also all in the Limietberg Nature Reserve;
Kleinmond and Hangklip are in the Kogelberg Nature Reserve;
The Winterhoek is a reserve too... No more Oceans and Frontal...;
I may be wrong here but I think that Toverkop is also in a reserve
Paarl Rock is in a Municipal reserve, not sure if the legislation will exclude that too
:pukel: :shock: :puker:
Basically all the world class climbing spots in the Western Cape are in protected areas...

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:17 am
by napaman
Yoyo,

Link to notice: http://us-cdn.creamermedia.co.za/assets ... t_1029.pdf

1. This notice was given on the 3rd of August and 60 days was given for any objections. Why has this come up on the forum now? Why didnt anybody give us a heads up so we can ALL send in objections.
2. Have the MCSA been active with this?
3. I dont think that this is the only country in the word that has these rules. It is not a ban on these activities. We need to get permission to do it. Its probably only to indemnify the parks should something happen. I dont mind getting a permit to climb if they are going to enforce the other rules in the document.
4. This document has plenty of rules which will make the parks safer, cleaner and more pleasant to be in. No Noise pollution (We know how this gets out of hand)

Would i obey this law? Whould i pay for a permit? Sure i would but if i had to read here that someone got mugged at chosspile and the security is substandard I wouldnt. I would tel em to go get.... If the park is dirty Poluted i wouldnt.

Read the document. I agree with many of the laws in it. Its for the better of nature.

For Laughs :lol: :lol: (1) No person may, except with the prior written authorization of a management
authority(
a) remove from a nature reserve any
(vi) Guano :lol: :lol:



Andrew.

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:28 am
by BruceT
Hi Andrew. referring to your laughs...
Funnily enough that particular reg makes sense:
some (all?) offshore marine islands are nature reserves,
sea-birds land on these islands,
there they produce white gold (there was a guana "rush" off the west coast islands at the turn of the century as profitable as any gold rush),
some of them nest on the islands and penguins use guana to make nests (yes they live in sh*t...).
Penguins are endangered - and guano collecting disturbs them...

Perhaps climbers are also becoming endangered?
In Durban, most climbing areas are in nature reserves of some sort (not national) except for Monteseel and Winston Park - does this mean we are going to see many more sports climbers at Monties?
C ya there,
Bruce

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:36 am
by nosmo
Someone should forward them a copy of that published apology in that one journal. "But we said sorry already!!" Hehe.

No but seriously. Fck em.

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:08 am
by MarkM
It would seem that the Cape will no longer be a climbing paradise.

The proposed regulations do not come as a surprise - why would our brothers in government actively head out and try to manage 'the problem' (read: all outdoor users) when you can keep your fat butt in an office chain and simply outlaw it, that way they can head home in luxury vehicles after a hard days work and give themselves a high five on job well done.

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:15 am
by Mark
Its a simple case of "what good is authority if you dont use it" - they need to flex their "muscles" to reassure themselves that they are important

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:28 am
by mokganjetsi
i don't think its as bad as it seems - probably just trying to tighten-up control on activities in nature reserves. will probably require an annually renewable climbing permit (same as a mountain biking permit on your wildcard or similar). i do not see them banning climbing completely or making it prohibitively difficult to participate in it.
and how will they police it?

otherwise we should get ready to burn tyres, libraries and the cable station to demostrate our anger..... :wink:

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:11 pm
by Not
I similar thing happened three years ago with regards to SCUBA diving in Marine Protected Areas. In 2006 I wrote a letter to the directorate for MPAs and received a letter granting me permission to dive in MPAs.

Now diving is included on a permit that can be purchased at the post office. It costs about R80 p.a.

I doubt we can just be shut out completely. Then again, the USA completely shut out BASE jumpers.

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:19 pm
by Paradox
err so it's ok to rape the country (and the earth) of it's natural resources but not ok to climb rocks? Climbers will not destroy rock faces because then we destroy our own sport. FFS

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:59 pm
by alvaourr
I agree with "Not" and "mokganjetsi"

I don't get why requiring a permit to climb is such a huge issue?

Does everyone only read up to "No person may" and then skip over "except with the prior written authorization of a management authority"

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:05 pm
by Not
Hang on,
I'm not saying this is a non-issue. Its a very serious issue. I don't like being told I can't climb in land that is ostensibly public land.

All I was pointing out is that there are workable solutions to the legislation. In the case of diving permits the money is intended to keep access routes open and to fund clean up of the most popular dive-sites. In the case of climbing the money should be channelled to ARF or path building committees.

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:44 pm
by alvaourr
Ok let me re-phrase,

What I'm getting at is this.

Its a restriction not a prohibition or "ban".

They are not saying you can't climb, only that you need to obtain permission first.

If they don't have restrictions then the bad elements can also claim "its public land so why should they leave". Look at whats starting to happen at Higgovale, innocent climbers are being harassed because of the actions of others. And from what I understand the "lack of paperwork" is adding to the grief. (PS the email floating around about granting access to Higgovale has a disclaimer at the bottom saying its intended only for the recipient and no-one else.)

A permit system can prevent that. I.E if you have a permit the rangers / police will have to leave you alone and i can assure you the druggies are not going to apply :) .

Seriously who's gonna "lose an eye" because you need to carry some form of access permission with you?

I'm not saying you guys don't have a right to complain, just that if I think it through a bit it doesn't seem like the end of the world.

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:20 pm
by MarkM
The authorities don't have a great track record when it comes to permitting - look at Rocklands. Permits in general for climbing in the Western Cape are a ball ache to obtain. Then there's the policing of the permits - I have never been asked for one outside of CT proper (Topside).

If I'm not mistaken, climbers have tried to help out with the permitting at Rocklands and the running of the camp site during the peak season after it was closed and were told no-way.

Regulations & permits are a great way to have organised access but lets be honest our local authorities have no idea when it comes to these sorts of things and they have been reluctant to accept help from people willing to lend a hand.

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:18 pm
by XMod
I think youre missing the point, its the loss of civil liberties that is so irritating. Basically your freedom is being eroded slowly but surely by big brother. During my grandmother's time there were no such thing as vizas, travel permits or even immigration control. Think about it, in sixty years we have gone from a fairly free world to one where every single action is tightly controlled and regulated.

The 'freedom of the hills' is fast becoming a fading memory. How long before you will no longer be able to pick up a rack and head out for an adventure on a whim? Not long I think. Soon you will end up going thru long paper trail permit systems (read complete rip-off and total waste of time) just to hike up DuToits peak. And if you cant afford the rates (geared at overseas visitors) then its too bad, you will have to just sit at home and watch TV, which is exactly what 'they' want you to do in the first place. TV watchers are easily accounted for and controlled, ppl roaming loose in the wilds? Well that just wont do now will it!?

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:33 pm
by Marshall1
Quite simple...move to the Eastern Cape. Our local govenment feels for us the same as we feel for them... a fu**.

Realise that these rules mean nothing unless you choose to obey. What are they going to do?

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:58 pm
by XMod
Anarchy in the EC
Its coming sometime and maybe......

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:55 am
by emile
akafridge asked me to post this on his behalf as his internet connection has gone all Telkom:
akafridge wrote:This just plainly sucks.
The man is hard at work i see.
I will never get a permit (I see this in the same way as the "pas" that people had to use in the apparteids era).
i also believe that the government should fear the people and not the other way around.

I fully agree and believe in the MCSA access arrangements but i do not believe or
trust in our government and there whacky idieas.
It is just another way for them to try and control our lives.

I say FCK them and i am asking every one to stand with me on this
and never get a permit or bow down to the man.

We are not a bunch of cattle that can be controlled or played around with and we need to make sure they are aware of this fact.

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:58 am
by GeoffJ
I think that before we go all DA on the legislations a$$ we should look at how this could work to benefit climbing in SA in general. If you're managing a protected area you need some form of understanding of who is using it and for what. A permit system is one way of doing it-there's no indication of cost of permits etc, but those are points that can be lobbied. A system that shows that climbers contribute significant revenue to an area gives climbers potential leverage to get the peeps in charge to improve infrastructure for climbing for instance. So if you actually give a sh$t then rather look at ways to constructively engage with the process. My 2c.

Re: Potential nation wide climbing ban

Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:00 am
by XMod
GeoffJ wrote:...ways to constructively engage with the process. My 2c.
Like dropping your drawers and assuming the position? -Take it like a man son!! way to go!