For the posting and discussion of Access Issues and Closures for Areas around South Africa.
I see the new CNC climbing management plan has been accepted by the CNC. An aspect of big concern to me is the part that requires climbers to notify the CNC of any unauthorised bolting or else face closure of the area. I do not want to climb in CNC areas on condition that I inform for them on my fellow climbers. They must do their own policing. What is even worse is that the MCSA has volutarily imposed this status on climbers. This has left a very sour taste and to my mind brings the whole plan into question. I'd rather not have a plan on this basis. I sincerely hope I have misunderstood the situation.
The CNC does not have the budget or inclination to 'do their own policing'. If climbers become a hassle to them, it will be easier for them to simply close the area. If, on the other hand, climbers show themselves to be actively co-operative, our access should be secured. Any climber who is breaching regulations is acting selfishly and does not deserve your misguided loyalty.
Dear fruit - I am a little irritated as the MCSA is accused of doing nothing, but when we do, we have to deal with what can only be described as stupid comments like these. We have put a lot of effort into this manplan and we are lucky that CapeNature has accepted it. Currently we cannot bolt a single line, while the new manplan allows us to open a limited number of routes. Cape Nature cannot perform effective policing - we all know that night time bolting and look outs can stop you getting caught. However if Cape Nature does an audit ie follows the well worn path to the steep cliff and looks up and finds a bunch of illegal routes, they will close it down - to bouldering also. Individuals who bolt illegally are going to ruin a carefully negotiated process which will result in us not being able enjoy this beautiful area. Please think very carefully what you have written and rather support us with this initiative.
Dear Andy. Kudu's and congrats on getting the CNC to finally accept climbing in their area's. That is a great service to climbing. However, I voiced my concerns in this forum because I thought the matter warranted it. I think this is a very serious matter which could have a very negative impact on climbing dynamics. Climbers must now accept that they climb in CNC area's on condition that they act as the CNC's policemen. This is a vastly different to climbers monitering themselves and climbers dealing with unauthorised usage.
Dear fruits old sport, if you don't like it don't climb there. I take my hate off to the efforts the club, and its representatives, are puting into securing climbing in very sensitive areas, no matter what the conditions, we can climb there and lo and behold bolt, bloody amazing !!!! who would have thought this would ever happen. Maybe fruits would be happy moving to Hueco where he can only climb with a guide or if the area was closed completly and all bolts chopped, which is where it was heading. Negative and selfish remarks don't motivate those who are trying to do something for the broader climbing community, those with a vision for the future of climbing in this country. I hope it works.
Hi Fruits Be happy that you have the privelage of climbing in an area that is a Wilderness Area and World Heritage Site..... there are not many places in the world you can do this! Personally, it pisses me off when people think they are a law unto themselves and selfishly jeopardise access for everyone.
1. Clearly there needs to be policing of compliance. Sure the CNC does not have the resources to do the policing and they need help. However we have opted for policing for them instead of self-policing. The problem I have is that the CNC has the power to lay criminal charges. A far better option would have been for climbers to have been able to moniter and deal with it themselves. Sure climbers who consistently refuse to comply can and should be reported to the CNC. 2. The premise of this option is that climbers as a whole are untrustworthy and cannot be relied upon to deal with the situation themselves. 3. I recall the MCSA having a mandate to negotiate a management plan. I do not recall a mandate to make us CNC policeman. I am personally going to adopt the following behaviour. Ask somebody who has rogue bolted to remove the bolts and point out to them that they could face criminal charges. If they refuse I will notify the management committee. They can then deal with the CNC
Look fruits, no one is asking you to put a sherif badge on and drop all your gear and run off to tell on any breakers of the new rules. If you feel more comfortable calling someone like Andy and mentioning the problem and have him take it further. It is about time that the climbers start taking responsiblity for the areas they use, I don't think they can and you are a good example of that, but for the sake of climbing I hope we can pull our fingers out and be responsable. And those who have a problem with the rule should just stop climbing in these areas, because that would be the case if the MCSA didn't do what they have done.
Hi. Note that the plan calls for a liaison committee to interact with CNC and incidents of abuse will be reported to CNC by them. In other words, individual climbers should not be acting as policemen for CNC. This gives us the opportunity to deal with problems *before* CNC get involved; ie. to be self-policing. If we can report problems and simultaneously tell CNC that they have been dealt with I'm sure CNC will be only too happy. Only in the cases where climbers refuse to act reasonably would it have to go further. It also gives us the opportunity to report problems beyond our control (hypothetical example: 4x4 crowd trashing Truitjieskraal) for which we could end up being blamed and losing access.
So, we seem to be getting somewhere ... again. The proof of the pudding is in the eating though. Years ago, when rogue climbers first made their appearance we discussed this whole \"policing\" issue. It was shot down then, and resulted in pretty much a free for all, with climbers bolting through paintings, on walls in full view of gapers etc etc. It was clear that the only way we were going to prove to CNC etc. that we were trustworthy was to report trangressors and let the law run its course. Talking nicely to renegades doesn't work. I applaud the decision committing us to being serious about protecting our access privileges. By the way, is it true that we have to firstly remove all the illegal bolts from the Wolfberg Cracks ? Including all the shiny new Swiss ones ??
Derek I doubt the line would be chopped, but the offender would be in very hot water with CapeNature, the MCSA and his climbing friends. We need to prevent this kind of thing happening by taking action(not only threatening)against offenders. Richard - Wolfberg Cracks is on private land, so has nothing to do with CapeNature. Climbers themselves decided many years ago to keep the Wolfberg cracks as a bolt free zone as it is a geographical landmark that is visited by many people who would not like to see a Legoland up there.
When I go to Rocklands i always see so many wonderful lines that could produce awesome climbing and if it were ever opened to bolting i would be the first to fire up my drill. But it makes me shiver to think of Rocklands after overzealous bolters are finished with it. Just look at Lower Silvermine to see the results. I hope people realize it's a special place to many and not to be exploited.
My two cents: As climbers we need to look after the crags to ensure access, whether it be on private land or in a reserve. At the moment climbers appear incapable of doing just that as a result we have rules, permits, policing and uncooprative landowners. The MCSA is at least trying to give the climbing commumity some integrity.
A golden opportunity has been given to us here, and I think we should acknowledge that. If anyone is aware of the new rules and still screws this up with arrogant bolting, harsh action should be taken. i was one of those that said we'll never get to bolt there in our lifetimes, so let's just do it anyway. but with the reasonable new terms there is no reason we shouldn't do this by the book.
I know Wolfberg is private but surely it should fall under a \"Cederberg Climbing Management Plan\" ? I heard from a usually very reliable source that this was a pre-condition. Knowing that the land was private prompted me to ask the question. An holistic plan would be better than all the fragmented ones, surely ? On the subject of the Wolfberg bolts specifically, as recently as last week the Niewoudts of Dwarsrivier were VERY unhappy and expressed a desire to ban CLIMBERS! Fortunately they were persuaded that there are 2 types of climbers going there and that not all climbers were placing bolts up there !
With regards to the DRAFT Cederberg Rockclimbing Management Plan, climbers must please note that under no circumstances can any bolting take place at this moment. We need to get acceptance of this plan from climbers and then final signature from CapeNature. The Cederberg New Routes Subcom will then review new routes applications and issue the authorised permits for equipping a new route. A rather disturbing rumour is that some climbers think they can go out and book a whole bunch of new routes. If climbers are going to act like children and squabble over who gets to do what route, then this whole process will fall apart. So please, when it comes to this process, behave responsibly so that there will be minimal environmental damage and so that we can all make use of this great oppurtunity. I was hoping that instead of climbers rushing out to book new routes, they would rather come and offer to help manage this process.
Ok so Im Schyzo! Derek Im not bored of others comments in fact they are always interesting and educational, I am however bored of sitting on my hands to stop them from grabbing the drill and making something happen for once. This whole process has dragged on for, what?- 8-9years? I took a five year break from climbing and came back to find nothing had changed! At last there seems to be some progress thanks to the untiring efforts of guys like Andy and Brent. So the big question is how soon will bolting be approved at other Cape Nature areas? You see we want to bolt crags not just routes! The idea of only two routes a month by prior booking is just stupid, Why not twenty or thirty (provided they are of the highest caliber)?