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Lost World lost again!

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:31 pm
by Nikki
What's going on with climbing etiquette these days? Lloyd Turner spent a good year buttering up the farmer who owns the land containing the magnificent Lost World crag. It meant phone calls, letters, dinner at his restaurant - he even learnt a little French to impress the guy! We had an awesome meet there this year - new and old trad climbers loved it, but a few of the guys pitched up late, then a few left late (the farmer was very specific about the times people could come and go so as to avoid clashing with his guests). Lloyd had to write and phone all over again for a few months to convince the guy to give climbers another chance. Now I hear that a group of climbers went there, then left way past the curfew. They were told the rules, given the contact details, and explicily told not to piss the farmer off!!! Now, no more access to Lost World! How about some respect for the guy who owns the land, for Lloyd, and for the rest of us who wanted to go there again some time?! :(

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:52 pm
by Hann
Hello dear.

Yes, Lost World is, as far as I understand, well...lost.

Perhaps those who really want to climb there will have to book into \"the Frenchman’s\" guesthouse, same as for Karbonaatjies kraal.

However, I have it on good authority that those responsible for the lost word situation is in negotiations for access to other private property in the Montague area.

Will give you a call once I have more information on the crag quality and in ‘possession’ of an invite for us both.

Lost World

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:08 pm
by Andy Davies
Hann we would love to know who the idiots are who trashed our access? I am curious about your statement \"those responsible for the lost word situation is in negotiations for access to other private property in the Montague area\" Are you trying to say those responsible for losing this pristine trad crag are going to make amends by negotiating access to some other dodgy pile of choss? This kind of behaviour is unacceptable and we as a climbing community cannot let our peers get away with selfish actions that result in all of us losing access to the limited number of crags we have. We have to respect the wishes of landowners - individuals who can't do this need to have their asses kicked.

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:37 am
by eza
The other side of the story:
We arrived on time and entered the farm with the other climbers. we did not see the farmer and so we walked up to the crag.
we did two climbs without much problem and proceeded to the third; nuclear waste.
we started the climb well before the curfew and if all went well(witch it did not)we would have been finished and down on time.
the first climber started up the climb and got to a point that he could not pass. he gave it a few goes and then decided to come down and let the others have a go.
the second climber also got stuck at the same point. only after a long while struggling and with the help of some aid he got to the top. it was now getting dark and as if to add insult to injury we could not find the abseil anchor. the second climber thus built an anchor and brought up the second. together they finally managed to find the bolt and rap back down with two ropes. it was now pretty dark and finding the path down was not easy.
when we where at the car we got a call to tell us that the gate had been locked and the farmer was really angry. we then went to his house and tried to explain the circumstances and apologized profusely. he said that climbing at the lost word was over. we tried two get him only to ban us and not the whole climbing community. eventually he opened the gate for us, we again said that we were sorry and to please not ban climbing only us.
since then we have sent him letters in English and French again saying sorry and to please not ban climbing only us, with no reply.
and I would just like to say on behalf of the others that we are sorry but it was most certainly not done deliberately.

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:42 pm
by jeff
Sounds like a perfectly logical reason to have been 'late' to me, I know nothing about the history of this place and the landowner / climber relationships, but there are very similar situations in the paragliding fraternity when it comes to private land and access issues. There are cases where the landowners have become complete $#@*heads as they realise the power they hold, and it becomes impossible to keep happy if they have other motives for not wanting climbers / pilots on their property. In such a case, I have seen the landowner find a pathetic excuse, but it just gives them that opening, and youre gone. This sounds like it may be one of those cases, but again, I'm not familar with the background.

Happy climbing and seasons greets to all.


Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:03 pm
by ATC
Come on!! everyone knew how delicate the relationship was. I for one understand that sometimes it is not always possible to predict how a climb will go and how long it will take, but that is why I often research the condition of a climb, making sure to find out where rap points can be found and which descent routes to use. Apologies... Apologies the bottom line is they broke the arrangement and have now most probably ended everyones chances of ever climbing there again. I stand under correction but eza you say you never saw the farmer on arrival, had you arranged to be there?, sounds like you just snuck onto his land. Had you spoken to him before maybe things wouldve been different- alas lost world is truly lost forever :cry:

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:52 pm
by eza
No we did not ‘sneak’ onto his land. we arrived with all the other climbers. We all had permits from De Bos. Someone did explain where the rap anchors where but we still did not find them quickly enough.
We had a bit of an epic and any one who has had an epic know that they come when you need them the least.
I am not trying to say what we did was right I am just giving the other side of the story
cheers eza

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:58 pm
by Justin
Hi Eza,
Thanks for coming out and letting us know. At least now we all have it from the horses mouth. The situation has been 'tricky' at Lost World for sometime...
I've think we've all had an epic on the mountain before and have arrived later than planned.
It's unfortunate, maybe it will be fixed one day. Until then we climb on 8)

Last World

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:40 pm
by Andy Davies
Eza thanks for giving us the other side of the story. Epics do happen and I suspected as much - nobody goes out and maliciously wrecks access for everyone. However we all need to learn from this and realise that a little mistake may be 'the straw that breaks the camels back'. Lets rememeber that its a privilage and not a right to use someone else's land, no matter how long we have been climbing there. How many of us have been late for gate closing at Silvermine because we tried to squeeze one more route in? Or sneaked over a fence because we were too lazy and impolite to get permission? Maybe next time we will need to sacrifice that extra route or some gear to bail off a route so that others will be able to enjoy the area later.

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:42 am
by DouglasWard
Can I be a little negative, and point out that an access arrangement with a curfew is never going to work? Especially at a trad venue. Come on, sooner or later somebody is going to have an epic. In any case, climbing with an artificial time deadline is crap (besides being potentially dangerously distracting).

Unless access can be arranged with an open door, and a smile, rather go climbing somewhere else and let a-hole landowners be that to themselves. Compare this guy's behaviour with that of the farmer at Oorlogskloof. I know where I'd rather go climbing.

Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:39 pm
by Marshall
We were the first climbers to make contact with this farmer a few years back. He is an totaly arrogant prat. How can we respect his right to buy up the best crag in Euros & give the locals the finger. Who the F... does he think he is?

What is he going to do if we refuse to respect his closure? shoot us?The days of shooting are over. Are the cops going to arrest us? In court...1st offence...maybe a slap on the wrist. MCSA members have been climbing there for about 30 years, could it be posible that we have right of way.

We parked on his neighbour's farm who is very awesome by the way, & trespased onto his land. This was before any access was ironed out. He was not happy & had a rifle. On another farm where we trespased the farmer & his mate fired a few shots in our direction. We gave them such sh.t. Reminded them that prison s.. would not be fun if they threatend us further with their weapons. We planned to fire his land every chance we got. Someone always beats us too it. He needs to be burned of his land...scorched earth!

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:23 pm
by Captain Haddock
Marshall, love youtr work - there's a box of matches in the post from JHB!!!

Hot air

Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:30 pm
by Andy Davies
Doug and Derek...

What are you going to achieve with this kind of attitude? Put yourself in the mans shoes - if I had a farm and some arrogant people walked across it without showing any kind of good manners, I'd also be a tad p1ssed.

Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:26 pm
by jeff

Is there any way that an 'official' group can be put together to meet and discuss the situation under an official banner.
EG, get 2 or 3 climbers who look and sound responsible, and approach the landowner under an official banner, eg, MCSA, and set up a formal structure in writing, rubber stamped, the whole 9 yards.

It can serve to make the guy feel important enough if he is a pratt, and if he's not a pratt, then he can at least see that the climbing fraternity are serious about getting responsible / organised. Buy the dude a case of wine, and offer to start the new year on a good footing by inviting him to meet at a nice resturant in Montague??

Just my 2 cents worth, maybe this route has been 'sent' before?


Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:55 pm
by Marshall
Hey Jeff.... \"Lloyd Turner spent a good year buttering up the farmer who owns the land containing the magnificent Lost World crag. It meant phone calls, letters, dinner at his restaurant - he even learnt a little French to impress the guy!\" ...none of that worked. What is the next step?

Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:07 pm
by JonoJ
How old is the le-dude?

Maybe invite him along to another crag, teach him to climb, get him hooked...and voila!

Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:45 pm
by DouglasWard
Andy, I'm suggesting that the rather spares resources in the access negotiation department be directed where they will best achieve results.

Lost World is one landowner with one crag. We have other landowners to deal with with many more crags.

If some individuals (such as the late Lloyd Turner) want to spend huge amounts of effort to butter up a particular landowner for access, then who am I to say they shouldn't. But one can hardly expect the kind of hoop-jumping access arrangements that result from such negotiations to work for the masses.

There is a truly awesome crag called the Outback at Anysberg, past Montagu. Apart from the long drive, one of the reasons I stopped climbing there is that the landowner, although he granted permission, quite clearly did not want people there. And we were hardly going to put more effort into a place with access based on a whim.