Illegal Climbing

For the posting and discussion of Access Issues and Closures for Areas around South Africa.
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Old Smelly
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Illegal Climbing

Post by Old Smelly » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:17 am

Hi

I know that for some people climbing where they are not legally permitted to go gives them a thrill. Historically even in the states climbers have gone where "authorities" have not allowed them. It sort of goes with the "dirtbag- rebel" image BUT the question does arise that - just like in buildering a high rise or base jumping off a high tower - does it go with our image as climbers? Is it something we are? Disregarding the Law and saying "what the heck - I will do this for myself and screw the consequences for all other climbers?"

In as much do climbers disregard the fact that climbing on someone's private property is a real violation of that land owners rights and not just a minor thing? I wonder if someone just nipped into your kitchen to make a sandwich or watch your TV the whole afternoon if that would be ok? How do you feel about violating someone else's right to not having you on their land. Or does the land belong to everyone when it comes to where you climb?

Yes you may be a great climber and you need that fix that only the newest and best projects can give you but what about your sneaky project gets all climbers banned for all time in perpetuity because of some selfish motive. Do you even consider that?

I wonder if the sense of community doesn't only exist when ones ego is not more important. Do climbers all just climb for themselves ultimately or do we have the ability to work together for the best of ALL climbers? I see some climbers working tirelessly for the best of all and others just do what they want.

What kind of climber are you? Do you think it is a bit of harmless fun to go climb on someone else's land? Would you be surprised if they Jailed you?

This is a hypothetical question that I think would be useful to look at to see how climbers look at these things and how it influences the way those who work for the best of everyone else should proceed. Maybe you have an opinion?
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

Mikemaldonaldo
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by Mikemaldonaldo » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:57 am

Ok so i am guilty of this. Ive been sneeking on to land via a river and an old beat up kayak. Obviously i havent placed any permanent pro, except for rap cord around a chicken head. Ive even stayed a few nights even. Strictly no fires as not to be spotted. Havent been spotted so far...

Pretty sure if i was to be cought it wouldnt impact the climbing community as it is moer and gone in the middle of nêrens and êrens. Nothing a oom wont forgive with a proper appolagy accompanied with a lekker plat hond and biltong.

Old Smelly
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by Old Smelly » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:50 pm

Cool - so an interesting perspective - do you think the land owner just wouldn't care that much? Or that there is no real need to access the climbs in a legitimate way? Or is it just so infrequent and so inaccessible that no one would care? If the climbing was worth it do you think it would be worth finding a legit way to climb there?
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

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gollum
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by gollum » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:16 pm

I've twice climbed on private land with no established crags.

On both occasions my friends and I contacted the landowners beforehand and obtained permission. On both occasions we got approval with no hassle. Hopefully on both occasions we left an impression of a trustworthy, reasonable climbing community.

It's the decent thing to do, no matter the consequences. If you trespass to go climbing, then don't complain about or point fingers at corruption in government, service delivery, or the like.

It's about simple respect.
"I have no more friends, and my nuts are too small!"

Mikemaldonaldo
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by Mikemaldonaldo » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:31 pm

gollum wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:16 pm
I've twice climbed on private land with no established crags.

On both occasions my friends and I contacted the landowners beforehand and obtained permission. On both occasions we got approval with no hassle. Hopefully on both occasions we left an impression of a trustworthy, reasonable climbing community.

It's the decent thing to do, no matter the consequences. If you trespass to go climbing, then don't complain about or point fingers at corruption in government, service delivery, or the like.

It's about simple respect.


Hehehe. I call bullshit on that boet. You want to tell me you have never don 70 in a 60 zone? Cause by your philosophy, you can then also not point finger or complain about service delivery. I think you’re full of kak.

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:34 pm

Not climbers but related/relevant

I live on the edge of a nature reserve which has excellent mountain biking. The sheer number of bikers riding hugely expensive bikes who trespass across our property and climb fences to avoid the (minimal) access fees at the main entrance, or simply to "avoid hassle" (apparently) is staggering. What's even more unpleasant is when confronted, the vast majority are unpleasant, combative and aggressive. If I rode my bike through their garden I'd get shot/arrested by their armed response in seconds, but since it's rural, now trespassing doesn't count?

It's the same with climbers illegally accessing crags on private land - you're trespassing and the land owner has every right to have you arrested. Just because you subscribe to some freedom of the hills ideal, does not make it legal in South Africa. If you do it, and get caught, you better hope that you catch the Oom on a good day.
Happy climbing
Nic

Mikemaldonaldo
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by Mikemaldonaldo » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:36 pm

Old Smelly wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:50 pm
Cool - so an interesting perspective - do you think the land owner just wouldn't care that much? Or that there is no real need to access the climbs in a legitimate way? Or is it just so infrequent and so inaccessible that no one would care? If the climbing was worth it do you think it would be worth finding a legit way to climb there?
Yes stinkman that is more or less how i reason it. The climbing (imho) is absolutely amazing, but it is a proper full days effort to get there and thats by river. Lekker going but absolutely shit going back against the current. So i doubt any carrot chomper will ever be interested in the place.

AndrewV
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by AndrewV » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:42 pm

I got into climbing because I love surf fishing, some of the best spots are in really heard to reach areas. Some places allow you to climb down with all your fishing gear to fish, but won't permit you to set up a rappell. This is ridiculous and I often ignore it. These places tend to be reserves of sorts.

Mikemaldonaldo
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by Mikemaldonaldo » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:24 pm

Nic Le Maitre wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:34 pm
Not climbers but related/relevant

I live on the edge of a nature reserve which has excellent mountain biking. The sheer number of bikers riding hugely expensive bikes who trespass across our property and climb fences to avoid the (minimal) access fees at the main entrance, or simply to "avoid hassle" (apparently) is staggering. What's even more unpleasant is when confronted, the vast majority are unpleasant, combative and aggressive. If I rode my bike through their garden I'd get shot/arrested by their armed response in seconds, but since it's rural, now trespassing doesn't count?

It's the same with climbers illegally accessing crags on private land - you're trespassing and the land owner has every right to have you arrested. Just because you subscribe to some freedom of the hills ideal, does not make it legal in South Africa. If you do it, and get caught, you better hope that you catch the Oom on a good day.
Look Nic i get that it is illegal and the oom wont be all too impressed.
I get that its a pest for you having the problem you have on your land...but, where I go i dont think the oom has ever been there as there is no way he’ll get his single cab land cruiser any where close. So in my trespassing case its like that old poep storie ouens try when they want to be philosophical and highly intelligent that goes “if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to hear it fall, does it make a sound. I leave without a trace. Not anything like whats happening on your land.

If you never saw any one for years on your land and then one day come accross a well mannered and apologetic curly haired ape climbing one of your cliffs, please tell me you are going to flip your arse in a knot and phone the cops. Please dont compare what i do with the rude paloekas you encounter.

AndrewV
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Real Name: Andrew Vermaak

Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by AndrewV » Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:57 pm

Nic Le Maitre wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:34 pm
Not climbers but related/relevant

I live on the edge of a nature reserve which has excellent mountain biking. The sheer number of bikers riding hugely expensive bikes who trespass across our property and climb fences to avoid the (minimal) access fees at the main entrance, or simply to "avoid hassle" (apparently) is staggering. What's even more unpleasant is when confronted, the vast majority are unpleasant, combative and aggressive. If I rode my bike through their garden I'd get shot/arrested by their armed response in seconds, but since it's rural, now trespassing doesn't count?

It's the same with climbers illegally accessing crags on private land - you're trespassing and the land owner has every right to have you arrested. Just because you subscribe to some freedom of the hills ideal, does not make it legal in South Africa. If you do it, and get caught, you better hope that you catch the Oom on a good day.
I think you should breed wolves, that will encourage some to move swiftly and silently, those who don't - well, they won't be much of a problem in future......

I really do feel that climbing of private land requires landowners permission. Where reasonable I believe Sanparks, Cape nature etc should allow us to climb with zero footprint policy. I've yet to find a climber who leave as much of a mess as some fishermen!

Chris F
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Location: Aberdeen, Scotland

Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by Chris F » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:14 pm

This is especially relevant to climbers trespassing and pissing off landowners, and saying what can they do?

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php ... 660.0.html

A climbing resource permanently lost.

Have heard instances of landowners pouring oil down crags etc.

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:12 pm

Mikemaldonaldo wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:24 pm

Look Nic i get that it is illegal and the oom wont be all too impressed.
I get that its a pest for you having the problem you have on your land...but, where I go i dont think the oom has ever been there as there is no way he’ll get his single cab land cruiser any where close. So in my trespassing case its like that old poep storie ouens try when they want to be philosophical and highly intelligent that goes “if a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to hear it fall, does it make a sound. I leave without a trace. Not anything like whats happening on your land.

If you never saw any one for years on your land and then one day come accross a well mannered and apologetic curly haired ape climbing one of your cliffs, please tell me you are going to flip your arse in a knot and phone the cops. Please dont compare what i do with the rude paloekas you encounter.
Just because you think you've not left a trace, or because you think the Oom doesn't go there, in no way justifies what you are doing. Humans generally seem to be dicks when it comes to this sort of thing. It might be easier for you to ask for forgiveness rather than permission, but its certainly much more respectful and worthwhile to ask for permission.

We have people setting fires, breaking fences, leaving used condoms and litter (and actual turds), so to me, everyone gets treated the same because after awhile you lose the patience to try sort out the nice guy (who some how missed 6 signs and the fence he's climbing over) from the arsonist or criminal and you treat them all the same.

@AndrewV, wolves sound great, might go for indigenous lions rather, just hang a sign with a picture and "Good Luck"
Happy climbing
Nic

Old Smelly
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by Old Smelly » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:36 pm

I think the point I am trying to raise is well borne out by what Nic is saying.

I am sure all climbers are nice reasonable people who never leave a trace, but lets consider those mountain bikers for a second with their R60 000plus bikes and all their fancy gear who somehow seem to think it is their right to just go on someone elses land because they enjoy the Nature there - they may even be the type who would say "This place is too beautiful to be a private property" and yet it is.

There is a disturbing case of self justification that happens with these type of people accessing someone elses land - they don't even see that it may be a problem because it belongs to someone else. So rational perspective is lost - most likely due to selfish motives.

There is another factor at play here though - which is a small crowd of 'Rebel' climbers who think they are just being cool- possibly eliminating all chances for legal access for the entire climbing community. Within the climbing community this should be self regulating but if it is seen as the norm then there is little hope for the mature advancement of climbing access So do we allow the LCD bunch to destroy everyone elses chances?
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

pillick
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by pillick » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:13 pm

It's not your land - Julius is coming!!!

Old Smelly
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by Old Smelly » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:37 am

Funny Comment there...

If one cannot own land, then one cannot own the property that their business is on, then one cannot own their business, then why would one do business -oops now there is no economy... Funny if how you carry things through to their logical extreme you will see you cannot have a functional economy if land ownership is threatened - pity that is so easy to work out but so logically lacking for some.

The moment someone's land ownership is threatened the alternative is a free for all, and by the same thinking - if something cost you nothing then it has no value - which may be why some users are so happy to trash someone elses property rather than paying for access. It certainly raises a question mark around climbers buying land to preserve it if someone else can just come expropriate/ take it...
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

mokganjetsi
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by mokganjetsi » Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:52 pm

Chris F wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:14 pm
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php ... 660.0.html

A climbing resource permanently lost.

Have heard instances of landowners pouring oil down crags etc.
insane! i would love to see environmental laws passed that criminalizes destruction of natural features (like cliffs) the same as polluting a water system. that said, respecting private landowners' property rights should not even be up for discussion.

mikemaldonaldo, what's with the badass persona and forum swagger? desperate for attention?

rocklooney
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by rocklooney » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:39 pm

mokganjetsi wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:52 pm
Chris F wrote:
Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:14 pm
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php ... 660.0.html

A climbing resource permanently lost.

Have heard instances of landowners pouring oil down crags etc.
insane! i would love to see environmental laws passed that criminalizes destruction of natural features (like cliffs) the same as polluting a water system. that said, respecting private landowners' property rights should not even be up for discussion.

mikemaldonaldo, what's with the badass persona and forum swagger? desperate for attention?
I agree with mokganjetsi and Chris F. Title to property is a fundamental right in an economy. Trespassing is just that. "Harmless" trespassing is the thin end of the wedge.

@mokganjestsi - "forum swagger" - almost pissed myself.

Old Smelly
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by Old Smelly » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:42 am

OOh yes - I needs some FORUM SWAGGER... :jocolor:
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

deSouzaFrank
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by deSouzaFrank » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:12 am

I frequently climb a beautiful cliff just outside my town. I pay entrance fee every single time, to gain access, but i then climb at this cliff that is never visited by any of the other, very few, visitors. It is also worth mentioning that it is on land owned by a trust. The place is in very bad shape and hopelessly mismanaged.

So i am now, after reading all of this, wondering if what im doing would also be seen as a dick move by all, following this thread and the climbing community in general?

Old Smelly
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by Old Smelly » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:48 am

Seems to me that you are doing the right thing - now you need to get hold of the trusts Trustees and ask whether they can put your fees to use in improving the place...
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

deSouzaFrank
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Re: Illegal Climbing

Post by deSouzaFrank » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:06 pm

Old smelly i really dont want to hijack this thread but Ive been spoiled with an awesome toy for Christmas and took it out for a spin at the crag i have mentioned.

I really love being at this crag/cliff and have always wondered what type of rock this possibly could be.

Would be awesome if some one could identify the rock just by seeing the video and also to hear, if any of you, think it would even be worth a visit.

https://youtu.be/HL9aWttQgRg

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