Rangers at Lakeside

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chowell
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Rangers at Lakeside

Postby chowell » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:54 pm

At midday on Saturday we were approached by 3 rangers on Boyes Drive. They asked for our activity permits.

I was with 5 children from my junior school climbing group.

My questions are:
1. Do children under 13 require activity permits?
2. Why aren't day permits available?

It seems unreasonable to have to buy an annual permit for one or two entries.

I have tried in vain to get answers from TMNP and their website.

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Justin
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby Justin » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:51 pm

Ok, just got off the phone with SANParks - Activity permit and Wild Card Office Tel. 021 712 7471

- No Day Permits are available for Sport climbing (day permits are however available for mountain biking).
- If you're old enough to climb, you're old enough to pay (you can supply a birth certificate if you do not have an ID no.)

(As below) I asked about MCSA members not requiring an activity permit - The person I spoke with is inquiring about this with the relevant committee and getting back to me tomorrow with an answer.

The following comes from one of the links below:
Keith wrote:Apparently MCSA members don't need an Activity Permit.

This from the MCSA:

"Recently one of our members whilst trad climbing on Lions Head was approached by a Parks Board Ranger & asked to produce his Activity Permit. Activity Permits are not in fact required for trad climbing. They are required for Sports Climbing but this does not apply to card-carrying MCSA members. If you are approached by a Parks Board Ranger & requested to produce your permit I would suggest that you politely explain the position to him and suggest that he obtain confirmation from the Park Manager Paddy Gordon."

"Please pass on details of any approaches that you may receive from Parks Board Rangers to Brian Lambourne."

"Also see http://www.sanparks.org/parks/table_mou ... hp#permits for more info"rmation on TMNP's activity permits."



See these forum threads on Activity Permits: Wild Cards and Activity Permits for TMNP & TMNP Activity Permits for Climbing
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Thermophage
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby Thermophage » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:00 pm

Hey Justin...

Their website also say though that "The TMNP Activity Permit is required by individuals who regularly make use of the Park to undertake .... etc".
Surely kids/friends/first timers you're taking climbing a few times a year don't fall under this category.
Does anyone know what they term "regular users"?
I need to go update mine today, but it does suck that day permits cannot be issued!

Cheers,
Cuan

chowell
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby chowell » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:07 pm

I did get the impression that the rangers didn't understand the system.

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Justin
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby Justin » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:47 pm

Thermophage wrote:Does anyone know what they term "regular users"?


I'll ask for clarification on this when I speak with SANParks tomorrow.
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GClamp
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby GClamp » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:32 pm

TMNP and Cape Nature just irritate me! Cape Nature more so ....

I have been taking some of my friends who have never climbed before climbing lately and I was wondering what the deal is with first time climbers.

So it seems that it doesn't matter if you are just trying climbing out you still have to buy a R270 activity permit? What happens if you are not a South African citizen? Are you not allowed to climb in TMNP then? It says on their website that it is only needed if you are making regular use of the park for that activity..... surely regular use is not someone who is just trying climbing out nor an overseas visitor?

TMNP have rules that the rangers just make up on the spot ... nothing is clear and nothing is thought out.

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Thermophage
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby Thermophage » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:34 pm

I completely agree Grant.
It seems there is not much in the way of communication between the people making the policies and the rangers enforcing what they perceive the policies to be.

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Wes
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby Wes » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:22 pm

What can a ranger do if they catch someone with out a permit? Escort them out of the park? Fine them?

I am a bit disappointed with these activity permits. I would have no issue with it, if they maintained the paths to the crags, had proper signage and had decent security for vehicles. Ill think I will take my chances for now thanks.

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GClamp
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby GClamp » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:57 pm

Does any of the money from the activity permits go to the ARF for rebolting?

chowell
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby chowell » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:45 pm

Justin - thanks for your efforts. Can the MCSA approach them to instate day permits?

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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby Marshall1 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:49 pm

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Last edited by Marshall1 on Tue May 12, 2015 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Justin
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby Justin » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:30 pm

Hi All,

Sorry to take so long, I needed to check on a few things first and make sure that I didn't explode a can of worms all over the place!!
I spoke to a manager at SANParks and to the MCSA. Nothing below is rule until it is formally written up and signed off.

Disclaimer: All wording below should be considered hearsay

The MCSA are in discussions with SANParks regarding Activity Permits for Sport Climbing.
Trad climbing at this time does not require an Activity Permit.

With regards to the use of the word ‘regularly’ on the SANParks Activity Permit website page: I was informed that this is incorrect and that the wording on the page will be corrected.
:idea: I checked today and this has been done! (I'm thinking of putting this on my CV ;)

Day Activity Permits for foreigners / tourists:
It was explained to me that ‘Day Activity Permits’ are not available for Sport climbing (they are available for mountain biking). Should you be approached by a ranger in an area where you paid to gain access (such as Silvermine), your entrance ticket is also your Activity Permit.

As you can imagine there is much more that is going on in meetings with the MCSA and SANParks

chowell wrote:Can the MCSA approach them to instate day permits?

Charles: I reckon the best/quickest thing to do would be to contact SANParks, explain your situation and suggest paying the equivalent of a Silvermine entrance fee for your Lakeside visits? (that's my logic anyway).
Yes, children under 13 require an Activity Permit

GClamp wrote:Does any of the money from the activity permits go to the ARF for rebolting?

To the best of my knowledge, No. I am sure that this has been pointed out to SANParks.

GClamp wrote:What is the deal is with first time climbers. TMNP have rules that the rangers just make up on the spot...

You climb, you pay (as above 'your entrance ticket is also your Activity Permit').

I did also explain to the manager at SANParks that there is often different interpretation of the rules/regulations - these come from:
1) The office
2) The Park Rangers
3) The Park Managers

What can you as an individual do about this?
Support the MCSA - they've been negotiating with SANParks since day one - SANParks will talk to an organisation, they will not talk to individuals.
As a climber it's your best bet!
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Thermophage
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby Thermophage » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:35 pm

Hi Justin,

Thanks a million for following this up with them :)
Such a ballache that they don't do day permits...But oh well, such is life.

Cheers,
Cuan

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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby Marshall1 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:19 pm

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Last edited by Marshall1 on Tue May 12, 2015 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

chowell
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby chowell » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:34 pm

Justin - thanks for all your hard work.

I'll take your advice to contact TMNP. who is the best person to speak to?

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henkg
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby henkg » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:49 pm

Justin wrote:
Keith wrote:Apparently MCSA members don't need an Activity Permit.

This from the MCSA:

"Recently one of our members whilst trad climbing on Lions Head was approached by a Parks Board Ranger & asked to produce his Activity Permit. Activity Permits are not in fact required for trad climbing. They are required for Sports Climbing but this does not apply to card-carrying MCSA members. If you are approached by a Parks Board Ranger & requested to produce your permit I would suggest that you politely explain the position to him and suggest that he obtain confirmation from the Park Manager Paddy Gordon."




Justin,

Can you confirm that the above is Korekt? Does MCSA members need to pay access fees?
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

Slave
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby Slave » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:36 pm

henkg wrote:
Justin wrote:
Keith wrote:Apparently MCSA members don't need an Activity Permit.

This from the MCSA:

"Recently one of our members whilst trad climbing on Lions Head was approached by a Parks Board Ranger & asked to produce his Activity Permit. Activity Permits are not in fact required for trad climbing. They are required for Sports Climbing but this does not apply to card-carrying MCSA members. If you are approached by a Parks Board Ranger & requested to produce your permit I would suggest that you politely explain the position to him and suggest that he obtain confirmation from the Park Manager Paddy Gordon."




Justin,

Can you confirm that the above is Korekt? Does MCSA members need to pay access fees?


No, I think if there is an access point, you still need to pay fees / have a wild card. This is if you are climbing in the park, you don't need the extra activity card if you have a MCSA card on you. Likewise, if you are climbing anywhere on the mountains in the peninsula, you are meant to have an activity card on you or a MCSA card on you

Crater
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Activity Permits

Postby Crater » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:44 pm

The Cape Town Section of the MCSA is adamant that Activity Permits are not required for Trad Climbing. Ever since the concept of what are now called “activity permits“ was introduced about 8 or 9 years ago, trad climbing has been excluded as it is deemed to have a zero impact - the same as walking and scrambling. The Club notes with distress that there have been a number of instances where SANPark Rangers have insisted on Permits and we are in discussions with SANParks to endeavour to resolve this issue.

SANParks,s Official Website provides that “The TMNP Activity Permit is required by individuals who make use of the Park to undertake..... sport/rock climbing “If read literally this would mean that an individual who goes up India Venster or Lions Head would require an Activity Permit! Clearly the wording needs to be amended.

In regard to Sports climbing at Silver Mine SANParks insist on an entrance ticket or an Activity Permit. This too is not clearly spelt out on the Website.
Card carrying members of the MCSA have previously been exempt from the requirement to have an Activity Permit for Sports Climbing in return for managing the activity on behalf of the Park. Hereto the Cape Town Section of the MCSA are currently involved in discussions with the Park
Brian Lambourne
Chairman MCSA Cape Town Section

Delaney
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby Delaney » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:11 pm

Hi All

Just a friendly reminder that the current status of climbing permits in Table Mountain National Park is as follows:

Trad Climbing – requires no activity permit
Sport Climbing – requires an activity permit unless you are a card-carrying MCSA Member
Bouldering – requires no activity permit pending the finalization of the Bouldering EMP

Please be aware of SANParks Rangers requesting spot fines or issuing tickets for failure to produce activity permits. Kindly be respectful to rangers but do not allow yourselves to be bullied by them. Unless and until the legal position changes, the agreement between SANParks and the MCSA is as above.

The MCSA would also like to know every incidence that does occur where a climber is challenged in respect of the above by a SANParks ranger. Please email Delaney on delaney@rockchicks.co.za should this occur so that we can keep a log.



Yours sincerely

Delaney Carpenter – Chairperson of the Rock Climbing Sub-Committee of the MCSA Cape Town Section on behalf of
Brian Lambourne – Chairman of the MCSA Cape Town Section

Delaney
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Re: Rangers at Lakeside

Postby Delaney » Fri May 17, 2013 11:02 am

Hi All

Further to the recent challenges from SANP Rangers with climbers in Table Mountain National Park, the Mountain Club of South Africa has drafted a letter which climbers can download from our website and print out to take with them to show to any rangers who may question their climbing activities in the park.

The letter can be found and downloaded off our Website: http://mcsacapetown.co.za/images/storie ... ermits.pdf

Any questions, please don’t hesitate to contact me.

Thank you so much and kind regards
Delaney


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