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Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:44 am
by jeffblane
Hi all

Could someone help me to properly understanding what exactly constitutes an Onsite-Flash and red point?
For example on your rap down if you place draws but climb it first time never having see the route before is it on onsite?
On along the same lines if placing draws before a red point attempt is it a legit red point?
Cos we see all the top climbers with their routes all pre clipped.

I don’t fully understand it all.

Shot

Jeff

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:22 am
by XMod
Jeff you will hear all sorts of rubbish about going ground up and placing draws. Ignore it! Its totally ok to have the draws in for both redpoint and onsight attempts, placing them is harder for sure but this is simply a point of style and is certainly not a prequisite for a legitamite redpoint or onsight.

Onsight rules are strict, in theory you should just walk up to the climb and do it without any pre-knowledge at all. Some schools of thought allow rapping down the line however in this instance you may not touch the rock at all or practice any movements. Having draws preplaced is contrary to what many believe but its just logical. Especially if you are trying to push the limits of your onsight potential, it pays to have the draws in to tilt the odds in your favour. Sport climbing is about free movement and how far you can push that, not about fiddling with protection! For me rapping down the route defeats one vital skill; that of route reading. Far better to not rap but read as much as you can from the ground and figure it out from below, this is a hugely useful (and vital in the mountains!) skill to develop. If you want the draws in then get a strong mate to put them up for you - just dont watch him climb or you will disqualify yourself from a genuine onsight ascent.

I hope that explains it, please dont listen to all the hoopla about placing draws, what matters is free climbing smoothly to the top without falling. Leave all the ground up, placing gear on lead nonsense to the trad climbers!!

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:50 am
by jeffblane
Thanks so much for the info you have cleared up a lot of gray areas for me!!
I really like the idea of the climbing being about the climb and nothing else!

Sounds like this topic and been debated at length! LoL

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:25 am
by XMod
Tip: If you cant see whats going on from the ground and there is an easy route next to your onsight target, then climb that and have a good look as ur belayer lowers u (sloooowly! :wink: ) to the ground. This where the idea of abseiling down without touching comes from.

If you do manage a climb placing draws then make a note of that in ur logbook, obviously its a harder and therefore more respectable style. But these really are just 'style points'.

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:03 am
by zabullet
CAN'T.....RESIST.....POSTING......
Jeff you will hear all sorts of rubbish about going ground up and placing draws. Ignore it!
....and that goes for xMOD's post too (insert emoticon for flame war).

Lets start at the top....

On-Sight: No beta (and that includes rapping down), no pre-placed draws, straight up, no falls, no artificial rests. Only available on first attempt.
Flash: As much beta as you can take, no pre-placed draws, straight up, no falls, no artificial rests. Only available on first attempt.
Red-Point: As much beta as you can take, no pre-placed draws, straight up, no falls, no artificial rests. Available any time (i.e. of first, second, third...etc. attempt)
(The aptly named limp-wristed) Pink-Point: As much beta as you can take, pre-placed draws, straight up, no falls, no artificial rests. Available any time (i.e. of first, second, third...etc. attempt)
Lilac-blue-green-point: As much beta as you can take, pre-placed draws, straight up, as many falls and rests as you like. Available only during a summer solstice with a full moon while you have an onion hooked to your gear loop (but not one of those red ones and shallots will not do!).
Sport climbing is about free movement and how far you can push that, not about fiddling with protection!
....and by that logic the purest form would be the humble top-rope (my specialty).

zb.

P.S. Before all you convention-nazis start flaming me. Take a deep breath. Relax.

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:17 am
by emile
not to be too finnicky, but exactly how is that onion fastened? :lol:

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:35 am
by XMod
Now thats exactly the kind of outdated nonsense Im talking about!
Purest form of climbing is bouldering or DWS, no ropes, no gear, no BS.
Climb however you want, its your game so suit yourself.

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:38 am
by fridge
OK When is the next summer ... mooon ...... slulstis thing again?
...
..
.
Hmmmm onion is on alowed to eat the onion while climging.
Does the onion count for trad aswell.

i like this onion idiee

i still need one of the Lilac-blue-green-point's

(i think the thread has been hijacked)

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:40 am
by mokganjetsi
well michael reardon said that the only "real" climbing is naked onsight soloing (without chalk) - anything else is compromise.....so, since we are all compromising, what does it really matter? i mean, at the end of the day its only you and maybe a few mates that know what you really did on the rock....and you can brag about onsighting this or that but you know it when you are fooling yourself. in the interest of keeping myself honest and in touch with how well i'm REALLY climbing, i stick to zabullets' definitions. not that it matters to anybody but me. and i'm quite comfortable with calling a pink point a "pink point" and in my books that means i "climbed" the whole route (no resting; no falling). lets me honest, clipping draws only adds an additional test to your endurance (and maybe reach) - otherwise there's no difference between a pink and red point.

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:50 am
by XMod
mokganjetsi wrote:clipping draws only adds an additional test to your endurance (and maybe reach) - otherwise there's no difference between a pink and red point.
Which is precisely why its been dropped from the list of definitions! Its just splitting hairs and only equates to style points. SA climbers are really behind the rest of the world in their thinking here. I know we are isolated down in darkest Africa but you are allowed to read and watch videos to update your knowledge occasionally. Yuji used preplaced draws to acieve the first 8c onsight ever, at that time it was controversial, but this is how many years ago now? No-one bothers with the pinkpoint thing anymore.

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:52 am
by nosmo
oh bollocks. i left the *kin onion in the car. boohoo.

howzit emile? work keeping you off the rock?

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:15 pm
by emile
heya nosmo, yes, work's a b!tch and then you clip an onion :jocolor:

going to Boven this weekend, what are you up to?

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:03 pm
by brolloks
what xmod said...

but naked climbing with an onion...? won't it like burn...you know, the soft spots...like your eyes? or someting?

:shock:

me, i climb with garlic, keeps the bats away...

gegege

:cyclops:
8)

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:23 pm
by Hann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-sight_climbing

We trust that wiki has the right info concerning the solar system, Darwin, history. Why not believe it concerning rock climbing?

Then again, if you are complaining about placing quickdraws or messing up your makeup while climbing, my only response is - Wimp

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:03 pm
by XMod
Oooooooooooh! Ur so hunky Hann, I bet u like to solo too! :wink:

(just a jest Hann!) Again climb how u want, for me its the movement and gymnastics I like, I couldnt give a fig about what happens with the rope, its just there to stop me hitting the ground.

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:54 pm
by Justin
Since we're having a thrash at all this...

I declare that Toproping is the only form of pure climbing (one below soloing :bom:

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:21 pm
by Hann
I'm just waiting for those promised rope less "anti gravity harness" to be produced.

Will that then be a Solo, Lead or Toprope ascent?

Re: Onsite, Flash or redpoint????

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:30 pm
by XMod
Those would be super fly!! he he! Would your buddys know if you were getting a 'spot' from ur harness? Think of the fun you could have secretly setting ur friends harness to plus two G's!! :D